Intermittent loss of power, NOT SOLVED.

0nebadbug · Last edited by 0nebadbug on Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:50 am; edited 2 times in total

So we got our Oval back on the road for about 3 months ago give or take now and have an issue that just has us baffled at this point...

You can start her with ZERO problems no matter what the temperature, hot, cold damp, dry doesn't matter... the problem we seem to be having is when you drive her... It boils down to an intermittent random lack of power. I realize this is only a stock 36hp motor but, when I compare the Oval against our '57 Ladawri's driveability with an identical stock engine (#'s put them both in Aug-Sept/'56 off the line) the Oval just seems to have a really strange & random loss of power when putting her under load (IE:driving)...

At the first few drives they were on par but as a few weeks went by and then a month and now three months now, some days with the oval are worse than others, almost like a roll of the dice when we try to ride her out and about. And now is just becoming worse. And after the other day when a jeep almost climbed my ass because I could'nt hit the top of second gear has now become a safety issue and I need to find the bottom of the problem.

During all of this we've checked everything three times over from timing & dizzy, to fuel delivery (or lack thereof), to coil & electronics, to valves & heads, to vacuum/intake leaks, to the carb and everything in between that you can possibly think of and it seems like we just keep walking into brick walls and the problem just keeps getting worse... Now to the point we are just stumped on what may be the problem.

Not even sure what to even check next, anyone have any ideas?
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::: Slowoval ::: LaDawri Sebring ::: '61 Creampuff ::: Dust Storm '66 :::

bdub475 · Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 2:14 pm Post subject:

Have you checked the compression? Is the engine rebuilt? My 40hp had a similar problem when i got my car. I did a tuneup and changed the plugs when i got it and a few days later it started to loose power. In my case it turned out to be that the new plugs were junk.

Snort · Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:55 pm Post subject:

You say that you've checked the ignition system in general but have you checked or replaced the condensor? Sometimes a failing condensor will show these symptoms. The motor starts and idles fine, but as the speed increases you begin to lose effective spark. The heat of the motor warming up can also exacerbate the problem.

0nebadbug · Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:26 am Post subject:

Snort · Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:55 am Post subject:

VW condensers differ in their form but not in their electrical function so if you have another one that fits then give it a try. Also, now would be a good time to put on a correct 28PCI and matching VJU4BR8 which you no doubt still have in a box somewhere.

0nebadbug · Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:52 pm Post subject:

Thanks Snort!

I just pulled the condenser off the BR8 but can't be used... it's the original style condenser with the yellow wire & hook for the side connection, the JU4 has the green & black wire with the rubber & spade inside... So, guess I'll have to just order one...

I noticed, reading around here alot over the last few years now about condensers that it seems that there are quite a few of questionable quality ones going around (even Bosch Branded ones too)... can anyone help me where to find an original new one ...or... what to look for as far as what an original NOS would look like Vs. one of the newer replacement ones would look like?

BTW, I do have the original carb but unfortunately is absolutely un-rebuildable (kinda looks like someone took a grinder, then a chainsaw to it and then chucked it in a creek for a year after they got pissed off after they realized chainsaws & carburetors are bad Ju-Ju).

The one that's on it now is a 28 just a later unit ('62 I think). I'm kinda forced to use it for the electric choke, original PO well over a decade ago first, yanked out the cable at both ends (*sigh*) and then ground the front tube flat, and spot welded it shut up front... We ground it open and we tried cleaning it out when the body was off the chassis but after a month of soaking, coaxing & rooting it to no avail, gave up on saving that. And somehow opening one third of perfect tunnel open just to chase it into more pieces just seemed too destructive so it kinda is what it is, for now.

Is there a closer to original 28PCI with an electric choke that would let me use the original BR8 dizzy?
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::: Slowoval ::: LaDawri Sebring ::: '61 Creampuff ::: Dust Storm '66 :::

57BLITZ · Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:59 pm Post subject:

tasb · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:48 pm Post subject:

From your description it sounds to me like you have some mismatched parts your dealing with. The original distributor for 36 hp beetle would be a mechanical AND vacuum advance VJU 4 BR 8 paired to a 28 PCI carburetor. Your original distributor are pretty hardy. Usually they need to be disassembled and restored by now= 50 years later. I'm guessing your son installed a 0 231 178 009 mechanical advance only distributor by your description. The main problem with this distributor is that depending upon when it was made and by whom the quality is always suspect. There are thousands of clones of this distributor. The JU 4 you refer to is not identifying which distributor you really have. All that designation means is that you have a aluminum 4 cylinder distributor. There are also several "28 carburetors".

28 PCI= 36 hp carburetor
28 PICT early 40 hp
28 PICT 1 later 40 hp
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

tasb · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:55 pm Post subject:

In answer to your last question...

short ans= no

There is a manual choke H30 PIC carburetor made in Brazil that you can find if you do some hunting. I like them on both 36 hp and 40 hp but they run best with mechanical advance only distributors. The only vacuum advance distributor that will work with the 28 PCI is the VJU (R) 4 BR 8. Again, that distributor is both mechanical and vacuum advance.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

0nebadbug · Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:45 am Post subject:

Thanks for clarifying that for me tasb, much appreciated!

The carb that was put on it is the 28 PICT, so early 40hp. The distributor is Bosch branded, 0 231 147 002 and a VW part # of 111 905 205 M below it and underside says Germany... yeah I know both are wrong but it still moves it forward... or well it did for awhile anyway.

While we didn't put it on, it is sort of my fault that it's there. Prior to getting it on the road we had to bring it to someone to get it going for us as the spare parts we did have laying around weren't working and we even swiped the carb & dist off of the '57 Ladawri and it still wouldn't fire up for us and was getting seriously worried I was the proud owner of a shiny new boat anchor... And let's face it, you can only keep reading the "HOW TO KEEP YOUR VW ALIVE" so many times before it makes you begin to go bonkers.... When we did bring it to someone that knows well better than us, I do remember him asking us if we wanted the correct carb, which he has on hand and I explained the choke cable problem and he just shook his head, sighed and of course... a face-palm... I did call him yesterday and he just said bring it on in and he'd check it for me...

Maybe this is a better description of the problem, after we got it back & installed it, everything seemed just fine the first 100 miles, 1/2 a tank or so... The first thing that happens is a weird stutter or shudder kind of like you were fanning the clutch lightly purposely and sort of "chugs" almost but as you open the accelerator it just hangs around the 2k-2.5k rpm mark (a guess) and it seems to backfire but isn't what I would call a backfire more just like a very muffled light pop as if the timing were just slightly off and then as you increase the throttle it just breaks up worse & worse without gaining rpm... It seriously reminds me of when I used to run motocross on a two-stroke... too lean, load it up, problem with high rpm while moving and then bog's down to the point of fouling the plug from it being wet with fuel or very similar to a failing CDI with very weak spark... Which is why I keep pulling the plugs after every drive and like I said squeaky clean every time...

This engine is one of those things where we stumbled on a complete motor which was correct in year & month for the car and snagged it on a prayer & wish, the $450 unknown Vs. $3,700, 0 mile turnkey. I figured even if the cheaper one turned out to be a door stop then the worst case scenario would have been buying a 0 mile long-block from him at $1,300 and simply swapping everything over and still be ahead of the game just for not having to hunt down every bit & piece, if that makes sense. And from that standpoint, other than this issue, at least it seems it's not a boat anchor... Yet. (hopefully)
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::: Slowoval ::: LaDawri Sebring ::: '61 Creampuff ::: Dust Storm '66 :::

tasb · Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:49 pm Post subject:

Actually the 111 905 205 M distributor is a perfect match for the 28 PICT carburetor so it should perform ok even on a 36 hp.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018

1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc

1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse

0nebadbug · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:51 am Post subject:

Well brought the dist over to him yesterday and everything tested fine against the matching one he pulled from one of his other turnkey motors on the shelf but as it goes, he didn't have an extra correct condenser on hand. Can anyone point me to where I can order the correct condenser that fits the 111 905 205 M distributor correctly? (want to still change it & have some spares to keep on hand). All it says is "made in USA" and that's it, there's no part# on the one I have and I neglected (forgot) to ask him. You know how it goes with anyone old-school ACVW... you always get side tracked in conversation.

When we talked he said to test the coil he's thinking maybe something could be robbing voltage somewhere. Which does make sense but since the Bosch 6v coil is new, a new harness, new ground straps, both new cables & new battery I don't expect it to be wonky but at this point I'll try anything really.

It' seems to check out, with the ignition set to "ON" I get a solid 6.15v at both the positive & negative sides of the coil... Though both sides are constant if you spin the pulley by hand... Shouldn't the negative (?) side drop in voltage as the points open when you turn the pulley by hand, correct? Are you supposed to do this with the condenser connected or disconnected to the coil? I checked the coil voltage with the condenser disconnected... (I accidentally put a condenser wire once on the + side once years ago, didn't work out so well for the points, kind of figured this applies for this test as well so I think I did it but please right correct me if did it wrong)

Will check the spark color from the coil's lead later, kinda hard to push the button & hold the wire solo & see how far she'll jump. (yes, I have rubber gloves). Considering it's new I expect it to be nice and bright and white and guessing it should jump 1/4" or better... But who knows, maybe I just got a sketchy brand new coil but, I doubt it...

Also going to pull the carb, again, to see if I missed something the first 2 times around, can't hurt to look again at this point. In case if anyone is wondering about the fuel pump? I figure if I can turn the key and it shoots fuel 3 feet then it's probably safe to say it's working...

We talked about alot of other things that could be wrong as well, everything from dropped valve(s), overly worn guides or stuck and/or worn rings and so on and if any of those types of things were going on I would have other obvious symptoms, of which there are none that are obvious... My original 36 that came with the car had dead rings and ran on only 30 pounds of compression, roasted valves and 2 bent push rods. Was noisy as hell and belched raw oil from the exhaust and fouled all 4 plugs in 3 miles not to mention the insane cloud of burnt oil, neighbors used to laugh & ask me if I was fogging for mosquito's.

This is just really driving me nuts...
_________________
::: Slowoval ::: LaDawri Sebring ::: '61 Creampuff ::: Dust Storm '66 :::

0nebadbug · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:27 pm Post subject:

OMFG... it can't be this dumb, can it?

Spent all day scratching my head...

For only grabbing at straws, I pulled the main coil wire in it and checked it for resistance got a reading of 4.46/xΩ, Shocked

So then I grabbed a nail sitting next to me, it read 0.000/xΩ .... From there it made me look farther and focused inside of the main coil wire, I see a black sheathed main wire wrapped in cotton (or something looking like cotton anyway)... RF suspression resistor wire..?

From there and out of curiosity, I went hunting around the garage and found the old coil main wire that was in my 'box-O-leftoverstuff' put it on the meter and it read 0.01/xΩ, WTF? Plugged that into the coil & distributor... went around the block. From cold it 'poofed' a couple times under load, drove back, let it warm for a few 10-15 minutes or so. WOW! Is like night and day from only one tiny wire...

Wonder what replacing all of them might do...
Hello WW wires

Would do the Amazon route for them but as of late really getting tired of sending 80% of the things I order back to Amazon because they are broken, DOA or jus'phuqed-up from bad descriptions...
_________________
::: Slowoval ::: LaDawri Sebring ::: '61 Creampuff ::: Dust Storm '66 :::

bdub475 · Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:45 pm Post subject:

I'm glad you figured it out.

0nebadbug · Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:59 am Post subject:

Ok so I'm back to square one...

So I thought I found the culprit when I found the questionable coil wire so I changed all of them. Went and started it and let it warm up yesterday, it was 12 degrees out, fired right up and came to idle with zero issues. Hopped into it to just take a short cruise (having no heat yet from missing my heater door flaps really sucks in this weather & I froze my butt off). Drive started out fine for about 5 or 6 blocks then whamo! It started sputtering, popping & bogging down again but, now doing it even worse.

By the time I got the car back home and pulled into the garage. Now? With not even a driving load on it I can't even mat the accelerator without it bogging out. God this is getting irritating, I want to be working on the LaDawri this winter but I can't get it out of my garage to bring that project here to begin working on it!!

So to recap...

Changed the coil & plug wires with new one from WW...
Swapped the condenser with 2 new ones...
New plugs even though the ones in it were fine a well...
...Seemed to go away for a bit and now it's back and worse...

Pulled the entire intake thinking blockage or leak somewhere... None I can find, also checked the roasting hot side pre-heater pipe. Had a little carbon in it but not blocked at all, cleaned that anyway. Also no visual cracks or rust holes anywhere that I can see visually, with a magnifying glass too, found nothing...
...No Change...

Pulled Carb, & have checked & cleaned it three times now & is squeaky clean every time, no leaks, no fuel bleeding from anywhere on the PICT-1...
Only thing noticed was the ceramic chokes 6V spade a tiny bit loose so I put a dab of epoxy over it, now doesn't "jiggle" around and is working just fine...
Fuel pump... I'm guessing when it shoots almost three feet with the line off it's working fine...
...No Change...

Checked all fuel lines, filter and the the reserve tap... No blockages as far as I can tell & filter is as clean as the day I put it in...
...No Change...

Tested compression again last week, the lowest reading is 102 on cyl #3... all others test above 105...

Checked valve clearances again... #2 was a little loose, .006, readjusted it, all others still fine @ .005

Timed & re-timed it 100 times over and have tried setting the mixture screw from one end to the other... Which so far has only made it run worse, not better...

I've thought about buying a 28PCI carb, send in my BR8 Dist and have it completely rebuilt and also change the fuelpump in one fell swoop. Vut without not knowing where the problem actually lies? I find it hard dropping nearly $1k to wind up in the same boat! And since I can't get the car much over 30mph the nearsest place I trust to even look at it is a one hour drive away on the expressway. Called a tow truck and IF they can get it on their flatbed they quoted me $280, one way to deliver it. Shocked

I do have a tow-bar but since it's narrowed I can't pull it... ARGGGGH!

Soooo... This is absolutely baffling me & I'm seriously getting frustrated here...

WHAT THE HECK AM I OVERLOOKING!?
_________________
::: Slowoval ::: LaDawri Sebring ::: '61 Creampuff ::: Dust Storm '66 :::

Schwing · Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:02 pm Post subject:

Let's talk about your fuel tank and fuel delivery. I know you've monkeyed with the carb and tune up components so they probably check out.

Have you pulled the fuel pump yet? Maybe its just not getting enough gas. Does it hesitate or lag when you hop on the accelerator pedal?

***EDIT I see now you went through the fuel line and you might be ok. Its so easy to rebuild a 28 PCI yourself, its one of those really forgiving carburators. This problem really sounds like fuel starvation to me, but I am pretty much a hack.
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Karly · Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:26 pm Post subject:

I had a problem like that...also going through all sorts of stuff with my mechanic ....along the way I had a faulty set of points, we did the distributor, and that helped but at the end when it was so frustrating we swapped fuel pumps with his car and it was fixed.
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1960 Beetle ''Heidi" daily driver
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DBK UK · Samba Member Joined: November 21, 2003 Posts: 869

I guess fuel delivery.....remove the reserve tap and replace if for one of those cheap later straight through pipes (ones with no tap) while you are at it obviously check the tank for blockages and fuel lines to see if any are kinked or collapsed.....you will proberbly find when you first start the car it has lots of fuel but because fuel delivery is slow to get to fuel pump/carb it eventually cant keep up with the demand of fuel being used on normal driving due to a blockage which normally is a faulty or incorrectly positioned fuel reserve lever or a blockage in tank or fuel lines/filter.....try replacing the the tap first with a striahgt through pipe kit reason I say this is because the reserve lever gets worn people turn the lever to what they think is the correct position in the car but the taps not fully open or fully open on reserve due to play in the reserve lever hence causing lack off or low fuel delivery.let the car sit for a while and fuel eventually drips in and tops up the fuel line until you use it from driving and it cant keep up with demand.
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0nebadbug · Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:11 pm Post subject:

Put in new WW fuel tap 1 week before getting it on the road in July and is in full reserve position... and checked it all three times I've pulled the tank over this to make sure it hasn't moved.

I've 3 fuel pumps and tried 2 of them... Though neither of them are rebuilt as far as I know, didn't seem to make a difference. But I suppose I'll order a rebuild kit anyway tomorrow and rebuild one and see if there's any difference...

When the body was off, fuel pipe was reamed with a braided cable, then soaked with gumout every other day for nearly a month, no kinks or leaks were found, then reamed it some more, then totally flushed it out with gas, then taped it shut until the tank was reinstalled back in July .. The tank inside is also clean, no rust either... From the measly 100-ish miles gone so far have seen nothing in the filter other than normal clean gas. And have also re-checked the flow through the tube and it drains at the same speed & volume it fills...

I'd pull the Carb & Dist off the LaDawri and swap all of em but that 28-PCI has the Judson jet in it and the BR8 on that one won't time correct running off the PICT-1 carb that's on this one... And can't use that fuel pump either as that also has the compensator spring in it for the Judson as well...

I know trying to fix a problem on a forum is really kinda pointless but just trying to think of anything I could have overlooked here before actually throwing in the towel and sending it $omewhere to in the end find operator error endgame... so far I seem to be losing the game though...
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::: Slowoval ::: LaDawri Sebring ::: '61 Creampuff ::: Dust Storm '66 :::

DBK UK · Samba Member Joined: November 21, 2003 Posts: 869

just read you have a pict bin it and put a 28pci on.....double check the pre heat pipe on the inlet manifold to make sure you are not getting carb freeze/icing.....if that does not work change the dizzy inside the dizzy is a earth strap if this is broken or missing it can cause a issue that feels like someone is switching the fuel on and off.
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DBKUK


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