Key out, car running!

LoveMyThing · Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:03 am Post subject: Key out, car running!

So I'm getting my old 74 Thing back into shape. I've done lots of little projects over the last year culminating in the first Thing driving I've done in a decade. Major thanks to this forum!!!

Fun! Cool

At the dog park this morning, the Thing wouldn't start. Several cranks and nothing. Finally, I realized the number three spark plug wire had come off. So, I put the wire back on and VROOM!

Unfortunately, when I then tried to turn the car off, the car just kept running.

Key came out, engine stayed on. Hmm...

Shocked

Once I was finally home, I purposefully stalled the car and then quickly disconnected the battery. If I were to reconnect the battery, and even though the key is in my pocket and the ignition is in the off position, both my Oil and Generator lights will come on.

Is this just a faulty ignition switch issue? Anyone had this one before?

Semper_Dad · Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:25 pm Post subject:

Sounds like you have an ignition switch problem. Perhaps the connection between the mechanical and electrical part. They are separate pieces.

There is an Hextagonish looking plug at the base of the steering column you can disconnect and it should kill the engine. This is what the plug looks like. This is from a bus, Thing plug looks similar.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

In a Beetle, Thing similar

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LoveMyThing · Posted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:46 pm Post subject:

Okay. How on Earth do you get the ignition switch out in my 1974?

I have removed the steering wheel and the turn signal and wiper switches.

But now I'm completely stuck. There are no more screws and no apparent way to remove the remaining parts.

How do I replace this ignition switch?

74 Thing · Samba Member Joined: September 02, 2004 Posts: 7390

Depends when your car was manufactured.

An early 74 is just like a 73. I believe that this can be determined if the housing for the turn signal and wipers is metal. If it is metal then it is a 73, but if it is plastic then it is a 74. You remove what you did and then there are two screws holding the ignition switch in-you remove those and put your key into the cylinder and turn it to release the lock and the whole switch assembly can be pulled up and out.

For a later 74 you have to remove the whole plastic assembly that is attached to the column. On the underneath side of the column there is an allen bolt that needs to be removed (it actually acts as a c clamp). Then remove the screws holding the steering column to the body and then remove the whole assembly and the electrical ignition part is held by a screw from the back side.

Bashr52 · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:35 am Post subject:

You wouldnt happen to be running an aftermarket single wire alternator on this car would you?

LoveMyThing · Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 3:12 pm Post subject:

Got the ignition switch out. On my Aug 74 Thing, there is a white plastic tube that slips over the steering shaft which holds the ignition assembly in. No alternator. Just a regular old stock 12v generator.

Got the ignition switch out at last and replaced my old 'Made in West Germany' ignition switch with a brand new one also from Germany.

Put the ignition assembly back in. (Is the steering supposed to lock somehow when the key is out? Mine never has. What part is missing?)

Anyway, I hooked it up and connected the battery.

Same problem. Ignition is OFF. Keys in my pocket.

Oil and Generator lights come on the moment the battery connections touch.

What next?

mondshine · Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:32 pm Post subject:

When the car is running when the key is in your pocket, what happens when you unplug the wiring harness from the ignition switch?

If the engine stops when you pull the plug, the problem is in the ignition switch.

If the car continues to run, or if the two warning lights are lit when the battery is connected and the ignition switch harness is unplugged, you need to look for a place where a terminal 30 (battery +) wire is crossed with a terminal 15 (ignition) wire.

Looking at the wiring diagram, the only likely component where these two wires are present together is at the emergency flasher switch. So if terminal 15 shows +12V with the ignition harness unplugged, try disconnecting the green wire from terminal 15 of the emergency flasher switch.

Let us know what happens.

Good luck, Mondshine

LoveMyThing · Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 4:54 pm Post subject:

Unplugged ignition harness. Touched battery connectors together and the Oil and generator (and brake warning light) all came on.

So the new ignition switch was installed for no reason. At least I can now assume my old one is just fine.

I'll check the emergency flasher next.

Why would this happen so suddenly? The car was fine and running one minute and then would not turn off the next. Hmmm....

Fiatdude · Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:03 pm Post subject:

It's a forty year old car -- what else do you expect
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For every mile of road, there is 2 miles of ditch

mondshine · Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:10 pm Post subject:

How it happened is a good question, but somehow, the terminal 15 (ignition) circuit is being energized; bypassing the ignition switch.
If the problem is not in the emergency flasher switch, you will have to study the wiring diagram, and scrutinize the 30 and 15 circuits.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/181_Wiring_Diagram_4-73.pdf

The reason I mentioned the emergency flasher switch is that I suspect current is back feeding into the ignition circuit which is protected by the first two fuses (on the driver's side) of the panel. Fuses 1 & 2 protect all of the devices which operate with the ignition switched ON (except the ignition coil, and the things connected to it; idle solenoid, choke heating element, reverse lights).

So with the engine running and the key out, remove the #1 and #2 fuses one at a time to see if that kills the engine. If the engine quits, that's a big clue.

I still suspect the emergency flasher switch because they can partially come apart if any of the four peened over spots that hold the switch together fails.
All kinds of funny electrical faults can result from this.
Good luck, Mondshine

LoveMyThing · Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:38 am Post subject:

The problem does not appear to be in the Emergency Flasher switch.

Looks like I'm going to have to visually verify the wiring for the length of the harness. Evil or Very Mad

Anything else I should know?

mondshine · Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:17 am Post subject:

Here's a sketch of the connector at the ignition switch.

Terminal 30 is a direct connection to Battery +.
With the ignition switch in the "Run" position, the ignition switch is connecting 30 with 15 & X.
With the ignition switch in the "Start" position, the ignition switch is connecting 30 with 15 & 50.

With your battery connected and the ignition switch connector removed, if you measure system voltage (+12V) between 15 (on the connector) and ground, you will need to find where terminal 15 is being energized.

What happens when you remove fuses #1 & 2?

Bashr52 · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:26 am Post subject:

I may have missed your reply, but did you recently put an aftermarket alternator kit on this car?

LoveMyThing · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:04 am Post subject:

No alternator. Just a stock generator.

I have my suspicions now regarding the location of the short. I just haven't had a lot of time to work on it. Crying or Very sad

More to follow...

LoveMyThing · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:19 pm Post subject:

Took the 1 and 2 fuses out and touched the battery terminals. Oil and generator lights both came on.

Crying or Very sad

LoveMyThing · Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:37 pm Post subject: Emergency flasher!

Well, after pulling apart every single electrical connection, and visually checking the entire harness, I finally just bought a new emergency flasher switch.

Problem solved.

So, thank you for pointing me in the right direction. Onward.


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