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Cleaning an electric AAR
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Intrinsic
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:18 am    Post subject: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

Here is a process to disassemble, clean and re-calibrate an electric AAR.

Background: My AAR had been stuck in one position for many years, gummed up with black deposits which I suspect are oil residue from the air cleaner.

1) Using a Dremel I cut through the rolled lip in the silver metal cover
2) These slots allowed me to pull back the rolled lip 1/4 inch in sections. This prevents distortion or cracking of the material, which turns out to be quite soft and pliable.
3) Remove the valve and thermal spring, Note the calibration adjustment on the thermal spring (in the photos this is show as a red dot)
4) Inspect the heating element, repair as needed.
5) Remove the calibration screw, and thermal spring.
6) Clean the valve. I used carb cleaner and Acetone. At this point you can rotate the valve by its stem quite easily.
7) Reassemble the thermal spring, using your alignment mark.
8) Place the valve in the freezer and adjust such that after a cold soak the valve is fully open.
9) Attach the heating element to a power source and confirm operation.
10) Loosely place the cold calibrated valve onto the heater housing.
11) Apply power to the heater, observe the action of the valve. Mine took 5 min to fully close from ambient temp.
12) Adjust calibration as needed and blow into the valve ports to confirm that the valve reaches a fully closed position.
13) Carefully hammer the rolled lip segments back over the valve, first confirming the alignment between the base and the hose ports.
14) Retest on the bench, and reinstall.

Photos are here:
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work! I did that one a long time ago on my type 4. Also if you are going that far its worth it to install a, new coil. You can do it with reaistance wire and make your own coil. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

Nice photos. Someone just pointed me to this thread and I'm wondering if the area around the heating element was this clean when you first opened it up, or is the photo after cleaning?

It just seems likely that oil mist from the air cleaner over the years would have filled that chamber with oil. If it didn't, then I wonder if there's a seal somewhere, or is there some other reason that these get sticky over time.

Hope you hear about this belated comment and can reply.
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Intrinsic
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

The heater and related can were not cleaned, this is the way they looked when I opened the can up. I energized the heater with the can open and no smoke or other signs of burning were noticed.

Thanks for your questions, let me know how I can assist.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

How did you take the valve apart? Were you able to press the shaft upwards and just pop the top connection off? Then how hard was it to re-stake the top port back in place?

I'd love to see pictures of the innards of the valve if you have them.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

jadney wrote:
How did you take the valve apart? Were you able to press the shaft upwards and just pop the top connection off? Then how hard was it to re-stake the top port back in place?

I'd love to see pictures of the innards of the valve if you have them.


Jim...I will try to get you some pictures today.

I took mine apart a little differently. I used a sanding drum on a dremel vertically to juuust grind off the outer edge of the lip so it looks clean. I then made a three little clamps out of .080 sheet metal to hold it back together. It does not look like factory...but is clean.

I think a full ring clamp could be fashioned and look better...to allow opening and cleaning, or replacing the electric coil or adjusting.
Ray
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blues90
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

From the photo's once he removed the heater section he removed the calibration screw along with the thermal spring then soaked the valve in acetone and used carb cleaner and also chop sticks with cloth because the varnish was difficult to remove I PM'd he and he told me this .

From the photo's I see no evidence of removing the top port . Looks like once it was free enough the valve can be pulled out from the bottom to use the chopsticks a cloth and better clean the valve.

In his post he said cutting the crimp into 1/4" sections it was easy to bend the sections up without breaking them.

I'd prefer his method rather than removing the crimp. I would like it sealed .

Say if one removed the upper crimp so you still had the lip of the crimp or side to keep it from shifting side to side then made a thin gasket . Drill through the now existing base flange with the sides into the thicker round base of the valve and tap those holes . Place the thin gasket in and screw it together . Now it's sealed from weather and has screws perhaps 1" CTC so it can be taken apart . Might be able to use a thicker gasket just not so thick to change the valve position or a sealer instead of a gasket . The issue I do see is drilling from the bottom of the heater case because of the base yet from the top would work as long as the holes line up also you could use small hex head machine screws because getting a small screw driver would present an issue trying to get around the base. I think there is enough flange width if one uses say brass hex head machine screws say 1-72 or 2-26 !-72 screw body dia is .073 2-56 .086 2-56 has an 1/8" hex head.

I found this link which talks about the removal of the upper nipple and info on a heater made of resisters . Just scroll down .

https://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/djetparts.htm
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

Ok…these are from some of my earlier experiments. I was able to rewire the heater coil in the AAR with the slotted crimps around the edge in these pictures and soldered the wires onto the brass pins. The resistance was about 15% higher than stock from my notes…but it worked just fine.

In short...no you cannot pull the valve out through the bottom after you de-crimp the base cup. If you want the valve out to clean it...you need to remove the top elbow...which you will see...is not a big deal.

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An unmolested AAR for visual reference.

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This one was my first. I slavishly slotted all around the edge with a Dremel and thin cut off wheels. What a PITA! It worked but I went through about $10 in cut-off wheels

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Earlier I noted that I used a sanding drum vertically the edge. Sorry…poor memory. That’s how I’m GOING to do the next one. When I dug it out with my notebook…..I realized that I sued a cut-off wheel around the edge to separate the top of the crimp roll. Worked well.

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You can see the nice little ledge it left for the top part to sit in. you can also see from these two pictures where the oil that dripped in from the oil bath air cleaner gets cooked around the wires.

That in itself does not hurt the resistance coil wire…but as it slowly covers the wire…the wire cannot cool off by radiating heat to the bi-metallic spring…and it burns in half.

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Sorry for the blurry pictures….I did not have my macro lens on hand…and I was rushed..…but as you can see it has a coil and adjusting lock screw at about 5 o’clock in the picture.

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And without the spring in the way…you will see that …NO…you will NOT pull the valve out through the bottom to clean it. See the tiny pin at about 3 o’clock…that must be turned to fit the keyhole at about 11 o’clock?

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From this picture it looks like..IF...you could lever out the steel bushing from the inside...that the valve could be pulled out the bottom. I forgot to inspect to see if that busing is the bottom of the bore. I will check.


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So…the spring must be removed, the valve turned….and the top elbow must be removed because the valve comes out the top.

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You can see here the keyhole slot for the pin in the stem of the drum valve

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This is the valve and bi-metal coil. Its stainless steel…non-magnetic.

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The elbow is pressed into a machine fit recess and peened around the edge. It fits so tightly that I have to rap it back in with a rubber mallet.

But…I could easily install three small miniature machine screws with washers on the outside rim...where the red dots are….something around .050” diameter.
Combined with the tight fit and the screws in notches around the rim of the elbow….it would never move.

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This one was held together in my parts box with some little crimp clamps. Temporary… but it gave me ideas.

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Like making this two ring bolt together ring clamp….

Jim...last time I bought one of these from a dealer was about 1995-1997. It cost me $89 new.

Last time I priced one about five years ago NOS...it was about $129.

I would say if you make a clamp...solder in new coil...clean and paint these...you could charge about that much and that would be very fair. It would be like new but able to be rebuilt again more easily.

Its not hard to refurb one of these....but its fine detail/steady hand work...similar to rebuilding a fuel sending unit.....and with a few clamps and bits to get set up...you could do these more easily than the average person...and $100-$129 would be worth the money.
Ray
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blues90
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

Ray. the position of the upper and lower ports on a T-3 are in line with each other. the one you show what is it off of?

Point being the one in the original post is a T-3 model . I don't know if they are the same thing internally because in the original post photo's he did not remove the top elbow. Unless he cleaned it without removing the valve . There must be some sort of stop like the small pin you show or the valve would turn more as it heated up.

I can see the same piece with the pin on the original posters photo's . Either he removed that piece and the valve came out that way or he didn't remove the valve.

Also that slot which seems to just close off the lower port is there any opening from that slot to the top port ? If not how does the air pass to the upper port ?

I never timed mine to see how long it took to close yet is seemed like about 10 minutes maybe 12 , start pull out of the garage close the door and put the pad lock on . Once I recall maybe Dec 2016 I had it running while talking to the land lord and it seemed more like 20 minutes maybe 70 degrees outside . I'll have to pull mine once the temps here get below 95 and see if my heating coil still works it seems to yet is does open and when closed I feel no suction on the oil bath hose which could be oil varnish . I used to feel suction when closed just a little . Odd how in the last month or two it has issues worked fine since 85 .

Seems odd to me with the shaft being smaller at the bottom so it must fit in a smaller bore and that collar with the pin that any oil could find it's way past this. Either that or the collar just has a smaller bore to allow for the diameter of the thermal spring .


Last edited by blues90 on Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

blues90 wrote:
Ray. the position of the upper and lower ports on a T-3 are in line with each other. the one you show what is it off of?

Point being the one in the original post is a T-3 model . I don't know if they are the same thing internally because in the original post photo's he did not remove the top elbow. Unless he cleaned it without removing the valve . There must be some sort of stop like the small pin you show or the valve would turn more as it heated up.


Its off of a type 4 from a 411/412. The top elbow being a separate piece....they just align them differently before putting peen marks around it.

Outside of that...they are identical. I have some of each.

Yes.....there is a roll pin you can see in the picture both of the valve alone and from the bottom side after I removed the spring. It keeps the valve from rotating too far around.


What I,should have mentioned....but you can see in the pictures.....is that the steel bushing on the inside that the spring is against....is notched.....like a wedge of cheese. You can see it in the pictures. Between this notch and the roll pin....the valve has a restricted arc.

If he did not remove the top elbow.....he did not clean the valve. There is no way to get it out without removing the elbow. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

Ray in the 11th photo down in the slot of the valve to the left near the top of the slot is that a hole?

What I'm trying to figure out is how the passage is completed between the lower port to the IAD and the upper port to the oil bath when the valve is open . I just can't imagine it passes just through the clearance of the valve body bore . It's not like the mechanical one at all .

I'm asking because I want to understand how it works in between the 2 ports.

Also it would seen if the valve is not a fairly snug fit in the bore it would never close or seize . I'm missing something here.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

I must have removed the upper elbow to withdraw the shaft. I just dont have any photos of this aspect of the repair.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:16 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

Intrinsic wrote:
I must have removed the upper elbow to withdraw the shaft. I just dont have any photos of this aspect of the repair.


Do you happen to remember what your coil resistance was? I have a couple of type 3 valves....with the inlet/outlet in line like yours.....but neither of them havr an intact coil.

Other than possible differences to bi-metal spring setting between type 3 and 4 models....which I doubt.....the only other internal differences may be coil resistance and heat level.

The type 4 part # is 022 906 045 with a Bosch # of 0 280 140 007.
The type 3 valve I think is 311 906 045

Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

blues90 wrote:
Ray in the 11th photo down in the slot of the valve to the left near the top of the slot is that a hole?

What I'm trying to figure out is how the passage is completed between the lower port to the IAD and the upper port to the oil bath when the valve is open . I just can't imagine it passes just through the clearance of the valve body bore . It's not like the mechanical one at all .

I'm asking because I want to understand how it works in between the 2 ports.

Also it would seen if the valve is not a fairly snug fit in the bore it would never close or seize . I'm missing something here.



To answer this question...you have to realize that its not LIQUID oil that is making the journey into the lower section. Its oil VAPOR...and its probably equally mixed with fuel vapor.

This same issue plagues the MPS's. To get what is happening....and we have had these discussions before with regard to oil bath air cleaner operation.....you have to understand how the oil bath air cleaner works.

Not to get too far down the rabbit hole....but bear with me for a second.... the oil bath cleaners filter in at least two ways depending on how they are laid out. They are a combination oil bath system to attract and hold dust...and a CYCLONIC air cleaner.

The cyclonic portion actually does most of the heavy/larger particle filtering. The incoming (or outgoing depending on design)....air is forced to make a nearly 180* turn at high velocity right over the oil pool. The inertial forces sling heavier particles out of the air stream. They cannot make the turn. This air stream is also sucked across the surface area of the oil pool ...which from engine vibration...trust me...is rippling like a miniature ocean in a hurricane...trapping lots of particles ...but also sucking oil droplets up into the "coir" filter media.

This same effect is happening now on a micro-scale....air, finer dust and oil is whipping around through the spaces between the "coir". As it changes angles it dumps both oil and dust.
The dust sticks to the "coir" media.....oil does not really stick to it permanently ....because the "coir" is permanently saturated.....but it accumulates short term. When you stop the car...the oil spends time dripping back down and taking fine particles with it to the oil sump.

So....while running...since not all of the oil in micro-droplet form can stick to the "coir" media....portions of it in oil vapor form get sucked into the engine.

This is why in clean, cool, low dust environments....over time the oil level in the oil bath filter gets reduced. It uses a small amount of oil over time.

In dusty environments....the oil level actually rises higher in the oil bath filter because its getting filled up with dust and grit. In fact...when the oil bath filter gets too dirty...it fills past the space where the air gets whipped across the oil pool surface...and begins to suck excessive and very dirty oil into the filter....that the "coir" media does not have the capacity to block.

The moral of the story being...go by the book and service your oil bath filter. Do not ignore it.

So now you know where the oil VAPOR comes from.

The fuel vapor comes from the injection runners and ports after shut down.

The combined oil and fuel vapor enters the AAR rotary valve as its cooling down and slowly closing....which can be a period of time that ranges from minutes to hours depending on outside temperature.

The vapor condenses inside of the hollow valve. In extreme cases ...cars that run excessively rich or do a lot of stop and go and short runs....this oil and fuel mixture can literally fill up the hollow valve until it flows over at the air slot and runs down the side of the rotary valve into the can below.

In fact: I have found NUMEROUS AAR that were so gummed up that you cannot turn the rotary valve with a steel pick through the air tube. Upon pulling the upper tube off....you find the recess in the rotary valve filled all the way up to the air slot with a gummy, resin like varnish made of fuel and oil.

It gets to the bottom of the AAR...because the tolerance between the stainless valve tube and the steel wall...is .005". The axial tolerance between the valve and the bottom and top of the bore is about .005" to .007".

The tolerance between the valve stem that connects to the bi-metal spring and the keyhole slot its in...is about .025".

Most of the issue is fuel varnish....I would say 70% of it...and maybe 30% of it is oil vapor but it is a mixture of both. You can see the varnish build up on many of these inside of the port that connects to the intake manifold side.

I know its a mixture of oil and fuel because about half of the goo that is found inside of the ceramic coil part can be removed by dissolving it with solvent...and the rest is literally varnish...and cannot be removed with any chemical I am willing to use inside of one of these.

If its gummed up and will not turn....and you can wash out the offending goo with carburetor cleaner....is mostly oil based goo. If that still will not free it up....its fuel varnish. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

Ray : thanks for all the time you took to post this.

All I know is I keep the oil bath clean , even wipe the metal dish at the bottom where it sits sort of a welded on piece that either allows the collected dust /dirt to drain from the mesh are with the holes . I completely wash out the lower section including the walled area around it . Being a 73 with the PCV every hose 4 in total all have a metal baffle I guess as some sort of way to prevent oil from getting into the 4 ports which are all in the top section maybe to allow oil to drip back down. 2 ports one to each cylinder head have what look like metal bottle brushes a form of anti back fire device. When I had access to a wash tank I used to submerge the upper section of the oil back and allow it to drain until dry just to clean the mesh material inside.

I never over fill the oil bath I only add the Bentley's recommended amount so it's just a bit below the rim with the 2 arrows .

When you say hollow valve in the AAR , what I was mainly asking in the upper part of that valve from the slot in it's side is there a hole that goes up from that slot to allow the air flow to the oil bath port . I realize the slot is what closes off the port leading to the IAD what allows the air to the top port to the oil bath?

Yes I do see some oil in the IAD like a film yet it takes a long time to collect there after wiping it all out and here I do a lot of stop and go because of all the insane traffic and short trips . I do not see any oil at all in the hose from the oil bath to the AAR or the port on the AAR hose removed.

Once it gets below 100 degrees 110 in my garage with insane humidity I will pull the AAR and see if the heating coil works and see if I can free up the valve somehow.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

blues90 wrote:
Ray :
When you say hollow valve in the AAR , what I was mainly asking in the upper part of that valve from the slot in it's side is there a hole that goes up from that slot to allow the air flow to the oil bath port . I realize the slot is what closes off the port leading to the IAD what allows the air to the top port to the oil bath?


I "think" I know what you are asking....mainly because I did not show any pictures from the top of the valve.

The rotary valve that has the slot....that you see when you look through the port when you pull off the hose to the the intake manifold....is a hollow tube with an open top and with a stem on the bottom to attache the spring to.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


At least on the 411/412...the air comes in from the air cleaner through the elbow on the top (yellow arrow) and goes out of the slot in the side to the manifold.
I cant remember which way it flows on type 3 but it works the same either way.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is the rotary valve in cross section. Its hollow. Its top is open to the hose to the air cleaner at all times. Even if the valve is fully closed...oil vapor from the air cleaner makes its way into the hollow center.

Yes....its a slow process. These things function for years before they screw up. I dont believe I have ever seen one that gets gummed up before about 70k miles or more...unless the owner is really taking crappy care of the air cleaner....or running very rich (an overall poorly kept and tuned engine),

But.....as these valves get heat cycled...and get the least bit gummed up....and they quit closing all the way...maybe they close down to 85-90%...car idles a little crappy and runs a little richer but runs ok.....that slot is now open to both manifold and air cleaner...and pulls oily air through it all the time.

Valves in that condition go from moderately clean to very dirty and gummy in very short order.

I found this out....because for a long time...before I started dissecting these to try to fix them and before I finally coughed up the cash to buy a new properly functioning AAR....all I had were old ones that closed to maybe 90-95%. I had to adjust the MPS to get around that last little bit of leakage and run normal.....and....those would gum up fully in 6 months of hard driving.

The last big piece of data....when I finally swapped in the correct air cleaner from a 1973 D-jet 412.....at the time I had the engine from one of my 1972's in it along with the 1972 oil bath air cleaner....into my car....the one with the round pleated air filter.....the AAR's quit oiling up at all. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

Thanks Ray that's what I wanted to know . once I get mine off when ever it cools off here I will let you know what I find.

Mine does open yet not right away when it does it works for maybe 5 minutes then closes . I just hope I can clear in out and the element works . If not then who knows I'll just start it and hold the gas pedal down then it opens and does not stall .
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

blues90 wrote:
Thanks Ray that's what I wanted to know . once I get mine off when ever it cools off here I will let you know what I find.

Mine does open yet not right away when it does it works for maybe 5 minutes then closes . I just hope I can clear in out and the element works . If not then who knows I'll just start it and hold the gas pedal down then it opens and does not stall .


Then its working properly. When the car is off and cool.....it should open up to admit air through the alot. Once you start the car.....it has electfically powered heat. full time until you turn the engine off.

About 5-8 minutes after you turn on the car and start driving.....the valve shut rotate and close up that slot completly. There is no off/on or modulation.

Its just a choke in reality.....except it works backwards from a carburetor choke. When its cold on a carburetor.....the flap closes to admit less air....so the venturi pulls more fuel and you get enrichment.

With D-jet.....the AAR is open when the car is cold. This "vacuum leak" tricks the MPS into thinking the throttle is open a bit.....so it,adds fuel. Ray
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

It's not working like it should . When I start the car cold the idle is 900 RPM as it would be warmed up . At 900 RPM if I put it in reverse to back out of the garage it stalls which it didn't before. Before when cold the idle was closer to 1300 RPM cold then stayed there for about 8 to ten minutes then it would drop to the 900 RPM . Now in order to keep it from stalling cold start I need to hold the gas down in park so the RPM is 1300 for a few minutes before I place it in reverse of it will stall then once I close the garage door it closes within less than 3 minutes and once I put it in reverse to back out to go down the driveway to the street it drops the idle down to about 600 RPM doesn't stall but gets close and does this again when I place it in drive.

To sum up I have no fast idle at cold start then it goes into fast idle for about 3 minutes . Before it started cold 1300 RPM didn't stall and then took another 8 to 10 minutes before it dropped to the 900 RPM in drive idle. It seems to stick cold then after a few minutes breaks free yet closes to fast.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21474
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Cleaning an electric AAR Reply with quote

blues90 wrote:
It's not working like it should . When I start the car cold the idle is 900 RPM as it would be warmed up . At 900 RPM if I put it in reverse to back out of the garage it stalls which it didn't before. Before when cold the idle was closer to 1300 RPM cold then stayed there for about 8 to ten minutes then it would drop to the 900 RPM . Now in order to keep it from stalling cold start I need to hold the gas down in park so the RPM is 1300 for a few minutes before I place it in reverse of it will stall then once I close the garage door it closes within less than 3 minutes and once I put it in reverse to back out to go down the driveway to the street it drops the idle down to about 600 RPM doesn't stall but gets close and does this again when I place it in drive.

To sum up I have no fast idle at cold start then it goes into fast idle for about 3 minutes . Before it started cold 1300 RPM didn't stall and then took another 8 to 10 minutes before it dropped to the 900 RPM in drive idle. It seems to stick cold then after a few minutes breaks free yet closes to fast.


The question is.....are you SURE its related to AAR?

The AAR is not supposed to give you a high idle when cold. Its supposed to admit enough air....only to alter the vacuum at the MPS.....to enrich enough to keep idle stable at normal idle speed. As the engine warms up.....the need for more fuel decreases.....the AAR is closing and the CHT is warming up and leaning out.

You need to start the car...and do not,drive it anywhere. The electric AAR doea not care if the car is moving. Pull the hose off between the AAR and air cleaner.....start the car...check to see if you feel vacuum pulling through the AAR......let the car idle for 5-8 minutes. Check for vacuum at about every one minute interval. It should be getting less and less.

At 5-8 minutes.....it should have 0 vacuum at that hose. If it does this.... its working perfectly.

Get in and drive it. If it stalls or has issues.....it has nothing to do with your AAR.

If the AAR does not close all the way....so it passes no vacuum....then its sticking. Ray
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