| Author |
Message |
VWTortuga336
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2013
Posts: 125
|
 Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:36 am Post subject: 1974 914 Question - Fix Stuck 1.7 or Go With 2.0? |
 |
|
I just purchased a 1974 914. The body, floors & paint are all in good condition, only problem (so far) is the original 2.0 was replaced with a 1.7. Even worse is that the 1.7 is stuck. I am in the planning stages of this restoration and my question is should I sink my time and money into getting the 1.7 back in running condition, or should I sell it as a core and buy a 2.0 to put back in the car? I’m new to the Porsche world, so I’m looking for suggestions.
_________________
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
forrestkhaag
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 2
Location: Laguna Beach
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
the answer depends on what you intend to use the 914 for. If it is a show car, go to original 1.7 / original sells to some folks. If it is a fun-daily-driver kind of a car, go with the 2.0 or bigger and have fun in the build and the drive of it all.
also there are numerous parts sources all on the internet so do a lot of shopping before pledging allegiance to one supplier / the swings on cost for the exact same part are huge.
Good Luck |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Also......since the 1.7 is siezed ...you will likely need new pistkns, rings and probably, cylinders. If it was water/rust you will probably need new bearings as well...which will mean cleaning up the crank as well...and most likely a new cam and lifters.
If it dropped a valve....virtually all of that and at least one new head probably.
So.....you already have a core engine. The case/block is virtually idnetical on all three engine sizes. Buy a 2.0 cylinder set....2.0 crank and rods are cheap and easy...exactly the same as as a bus 2.0.
Buy brand new 2.0 914 heads from HAM inc....on new castings. They will be roughly the same cost as original 914 2.0 heads (if you can find them)....and they will 10X more reliable.
Are you keeping the injection? If so...unless the car originally came with a 2.0...personally I would do a tuned out stock 1.7. It beats the pants off of anything but the Euro 2.0...and can be tweaked to run almost as well. You can take a 1.7l from stock 82 hp to 92 easily. You can get it to 100 hp if yiu are dedicated.
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VWTortuga336
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2013
Posts: 125
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks for all the info. Would the case/heads need to be bored bigger if I went with 2.0 pistons, cylinders and pistons? Also, I should clarify that the car originally had a 2.0 and does not currently have FI.
_________________
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
No the case doesn't have to be bored but the 1.7L heads would need to be but don't use them on a 2.0L. The intake ports are smaller than the 2.0L ones.
If you are going to make a 2.0L then build a 2.1L using 96mm pistons and get the 2.0L heads with the bigger valves (42x36) and ports. If you go with FI then get the Webcam 142 cam or a Raby 9550 cam.
With the Raby setup you can be in the 115-120hp range which is a game changer in a 914 vs the stock 1.7 at 80hp and the 2.0L at 95hp.
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VWTortuga336
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2013
Posts: 125
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Please forgive my Porsche ignorance, but are the pistons/cylinders & heads for the 914 the same as a Type IV?
I'm planning on keeping the Webers that are on the engine currently, not going with FI. I'm HOPING I find that the internals are still useable, as I didn't see any water on the dipstick (I know that isn't all-telling, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed). If that's the case, can I leave the crank & cam shaft alone and just upgrade the pistons, cylinders and heads?
_________________
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
A 1.7L wasn't original to a 74 but you can do a refresh. AA has pistons and cylinders that are decent but you'll have to have the heads rebuilt. With the correct domed pistons for 8 to 1 CR you'll have 80hp. Swap in a carb cam and it will make more hp but the head ports are the limiting factor.
You can also go with 93 mm pistons to make a 1.8L and use new AMC heads to gain a little more hp.
yes, all 914 parts are type 4 except for the 914 2.0L heads with the 3 bolt intakes, everything swaps around.
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| VWTortuga336 wrote: |
Please forgive my Porsche ignorance, but are the pistons/cylinders & heads for the 914 the same as a Type IV?
I'm planning on keeping the Webers that are on the engine currently, not going with FI. I'm HOPING I find that the internals are still useable, as I didn't see any water on the dipstick (I know that isn't all-telling, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed). If that's the case, can I leave the crank & cam shaft alone and just upgrade the pistons, cylinders and heads? |
The 914 IS type 4. Save for a few uniquely shaped pieces of tin to fit the 914 configuration including the exhaust heat exchangers, one type of piston unique to the 2.0 914 (not used in the type 4 engines 2.0L) and the 914 2.0L heads and FI intake runners......every single part in the 914 engines is type 4 and made on the VW assembly lines.
If you want this engine to last...plan to strip it down to the last part and measure and check everything. This does not mean that a lot needs to be replaced.....but it would be foolish to not at least replace the bearings if there is any wear. Thats cheap. gasket sets are cheap in relative terms.
Even better....if the bearings are original and are not worn and the case bore is not worn....they are probably much better quality than whats available now...and you have the knowledge of what its life span will be.
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VWTortuga336
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2013
Posts: 125
|
| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So if I get very lucky in this whole process and determine there is no damage to any of the engine components, would it be worth upgrading from 1.7L to 2.0L? Is the performance noticeable enough to warrant the $$$?
_________________
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wolfgangdieter
Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2008
Posts: 1958
Location: FL Panhandle
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Depends on what you find that needs to be replaced on the seized 1.7L. A potential 30% increase in HP is noticeable in such a light car.
_________________
CMC '57 Porsche Speedster Replica and Dolphin boat tailed full pan VW MOD-T Street Buggy |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Wolfgangdieter wrote: |
| Depends on what you find that needs to be replaced on the seized 1.7L. A potential 30% increase in HP is noticeable in such a light car. |
And just about as well...its very easy with a cam change like a Raby 9550 or 9590, simple tb upgrade to a 1.8/2.0 bus tb, a better exhaust, better ignition coil and the bump in compression you get from leaving out the head gasket (which you should).....all things you would do with a 2.0 or a 1.7 rebuild.....and some diligent, tight tuning to the stock injection....to get just short or 100 hp from the 1.7.
Besides being much more reliable long term than the 2.0s crack prone cylinder heads....the throttle response from a 1.7 like that is as good or better than the 2.0.
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mar-tay1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 55
Location: Whitmore
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I know the real Porsche guys hate to hear questions like this, but....What about a type 1 bug/type three style sheelmetal, or Porsche style shroud. Economical? Plentiful parts at a (can be) decent price, NEW cases avaiable etc etc. Have you priced a good 2.0 head lately? The last three I looked at were cracked and would need extensive machining/welding etc. Now I am pondering a 1974 914 also but thinking type1 and would love to hear what you think about that? 100+ hp available easy now. With turbo??? 250 air cooled hp in a 914? Guest-a-mate for engine at about $5k, Fastest car at track? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mar-tay1 wrote: |
| I know the real Porsche guys hate to hear questions like this, but....What about a type 1 bug/type three style sheelmetal, or Porsche style shroud. Economical? Plentiful parts at a (can be) decent price, NEW cases avaiable etc etc. Have you priced a good 2.0 head lately? The last three I looked at were cracked and would need extensive machining/welding etc. Now I am pondering a 1974 914 also but thinking type1 and would love to hear what you think about that? 100+ hp available easy now. With turbo??? 250 air cooled hp in a 914? Guest-a-mate for engine at about $5k, Fastest car at track? |
Screw the "Porsche" guys.....this is a VW...really! Designed by Porsche and an awesome car.....but `100% of its made by VW and the vast majority of its engine parts are ....VW type 4....which is where the engine came from before the 914 existed.
But far too many unknowing owners with Porsche on the brain get into these cars and pay $$$$$ for identical parts they could have paid $$$ for if they get away from the "Porsche" brain lock and start shopping where the parts really are.
The Porsche 2.0L heds were the ONLY unique thing about the 2.0 engine. Only the 2.0 Porsche got them.....and they suck for longevity. Crack prone as hell.
40+ years down the line and virtually all of them are junk not worth the thousands in welding required to save them.
If you want the identical 2.0L factory head...improved in casting quality and hardware, with correct spark plug angle and combustion chamber shape and size.... Yes...they will run you about $1200 each...factory new from HAM Inc....with new castings and hardware, CNC finished
HAM Inc. http://www.hamincgroup.com/type4.
....or you can fight over a POS stock 2.0l head that is 45 years old...carries the seeds of its own destruction....for about $500 average for a core, have it welded, put new seats in (a must), new valves, new threads in the spark plug holes....and have a complete head for about $1100 to 1500 ..ready too crack again in 30k miles.
All of that being said....there is no comparison between the torque, the smoothness and the all day on and off the track run-ability of the type 4 as compared to a comparable type 1. The type 4 is better hands down. More fins on the head, better cooling, stiffer case, stiffer bearing saddles etc.
And....once you get north of about 125 hp....a type 1 does not cost any less to build as a type 4...because you wwill spend the extra on the heads nd the extra on the crank and strengthening work even on a late type 1 case....just to get what the type 4 has.
You want long term survivable, drive-able longevity at 250 hp out of the engine? You want get it for $5k on either engine. The head work will end up costing you as much for specialized type 1 head work ...just as much as the type 4.
Oddly...once you build good heads for the type 4 and a solid bottom end....its cheaper to increase HP on the type 4 with less work...than on a type 1. You have to do less new parts on a type 4 to go from 120hp to 200hp...than you do on a type 1 going from 120hp to 200hp.
If you are going to build for turbo and you want it to survive....iits going to cost about the same either way.
Now....if you are just looking for a quick engine to spank on the track and you want simpler WORK than sourcing parts for a type 4 for a long term longevity build....I understand the type 1 train of thought. If it lasts a season and throws a rod....who cares. Its type 1.
With all of that in mind.....and the fact that you will have to fab sheet metal and cooling....why?
But hey...its your car....hack it if you want
My personal opinion is that as these cars are getting rarer ....they should be done right no matter what level you plan to drive it...from stock...to road racing.
This is an Aircooled VW....Porsche badge or not. Good parts are expensive. This is not a hobby for the faint of heart, those in a hurry with an itch to drive what they just bought, or the cheap. This is not a cheap hobby if you want to keep from breaking things.
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mar-tay1
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013
Posts: 55
Location: Whitmore
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I get your point (raygreenwood) and fully understand what you are saying. As I'm sure you know the type 4 stuff ( even VW) is getting harder to come by and type 1 stuff is abundant (albeit most is crap). And am familiar with
the 2.0 bus heads modified for Porsche 2.0, and their inherent cost. I was just kinda posing the question, what if?
AS well I do know that the type 4 engine was vw, but always curious about the 914. After all the 914 debuted in 1969, so what VW had that engine previously? The type 4?But wasn't that 1970? and if you look at a 914 pedal assembly , front suspension, and gauges to name a few....All Porsche. Not trying to pick a fight,just kind of wondered about these things????? Not to mention the 914-6 was made by Porsche at a separate facility.
After all the Porsche 924 here in the states was an Audi sport, with VW suspension, to confuse things even more. And after being around these things for 30 years as a professional mechanic / shop owner I would say from 1969 to about 2005 they were VW's, now they are Porsches (by price).
So you could use a VW Bus type 4 engine in your 914, but if you've seen current prices on VW Bus's, you might want to save it for a bus! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mar-tay1 wrote: |
I get your point (raygreenwood) and fully understand what you are saying. As I'm sure you know the type 4 stuff ( even VW) is getting harder to come by and type 1 stuff is abundant (albeit most is crap). And am familiar with
the 2.0 bus heads modified for Porsche 2.0, and their inherent cost. I was just kinda posing the question, what if?
AS well I do know that the type 4 engine was vw, but always curious about the 914. After all the 914 debuted in 1969, so what VW had that engine previously? The type 4?But wasn't that 1970? and if you look at a 914 pedal assembly , front suspension, and gauges to name a few....All Porsche. Not trying to pick a fight,just kind of wondered about these things????? Not to mention the 914-6 was made by Porsche at a separate facility.
After all the Porsche 924 here in the states was an Audi sport, with VW suspension, to confuse things even more. And after being around these things for 30 years as a professional mechanic / shop owner I would say from 1969 to about 2005 they were VW's, now they are Porsches (by price).
So you could use a VW Bus type 4 engine in your 914, but if you've seen current prices on VW Bus's, you might want to save it for a bus! |
The VW type 4 car...the VW411 was what this engine series was created for and originally came in.
The 411 debuted in Europe in 1968. Prototypes in 1966-67. It was only put into the 914 in 1970 and into the bus...in de-tuned form...in 1972.
Most 914 guys who only look on the Porsche forums...and only ask Porsche mechanics...do not realize that ALL of the engine case series you find in 914's until after 1974....are in fact the same identical case series found in 411 and 412.
In fact....the cam shafts for D-jet were identical on all vw 411 and 412 and 914..even the 2.0L....except on the European spec 2.0L. Same part #.
The 1,7L in the 411/412 and 914 is the exact engine buiilt on the same assembly line right down to the last part #. The 2.0L 914 engine is built on the same assembly line....as is the de-tuned bus 2.0L.
Another hilarious note is the much sought after 039 fuel injection MPS for 2.0L D-jet....is in fact the same part used on all E series D-jet in VW 411 and 412...and in thee 1.7L 914.
The difference is that the MPS used in the 2.0L 914 only has the Porsche part # stamped in it. The same unit on the 411 and 412 has the Bosch #, The VW # and the Porsche #. The one in the 1.7L 914 is in fact the exact unit as the 2.0L...but has a different factory setting so it gets a different Porsche part #. You can reset the unit yourself for either engine. Its adjustable.
Don't confuse the car CHASSIS with the engine. The car itself...as I noted...is and was a Porsche design.
However...many of the internal parts ...electricals, drive shafts, relays.....are VW. The whole things is BUILT by VW. This does not make its excellent design any less Porsche.
And...the car was built by VW regardless of the parts unique to its design. In fact...the entire front brake system...rotors and calipers...is right off the 411 and 412 as is the brake pressure regulator.
Its kind of like wondering if since the bug, type 3 and type 4 were all VW...why don't they all have the same instruments and interior? Each ...including the 914 is a unique design.  get my meaning?
The new heads that HAM inc makes....are NOT using old 1.7 head castings. They WILL do that, but the head casting needs to be very good...almost flawless. Not something easily found these days even in 1.7L Q series head castings.
They are using brand new AMC castings. New seats are put in, the plugs re-angled...and the combustion chamber re-shaped and sized for exact 2.0L 914.
The issue with bus parts....I hate those guys....they are out snapping up as many good low mileage un-abused 411, 412 and 914 engine cases as they can.....because the type 4 engine was under powered even for the bus....for USA driving. The bus hammers the crap out of cases and heads.
If you have a good case....rebuild it now while you can get parts.
Also.....I am not speaking of using a VW bus engine in a Porsche 914.
There is no such thing as a VW bus engine
....or a 411/412 engine
...or a 914 engine.
They are all simply type 4 powered vehicles. They all them type 4...because the VW 411 and 412 are the type 4 VW. Thats where the engine came from.
They are all the same case castings and head castings made on the same dies, same assembly line etc.
The cranks and rods are made from the exact same dies. The parts are machined by the exact same machines. The pistons are from the same manufacturers. The level of balance, tolerance and fit and finish...was identical in all of these vehicles engines.
The difference from vehicle to vehicle.... is in specification only.
Different compression and torque band is accomplished on bus engines by piston dish volume and cylinder shim and camshaft.
The VW 411/412 1.7l is identical in every way including HP and torque to the 1.7L in the 914.
The case, crank, oil pump and rods of the 2.0L 914 are identical to the 2.0L bus. The 914 got the first Porsche unique engine parts with different pistons, different cam in Europe and different heads.
The 1.8L 914 uses the same part # case as any other type 4. It uses the same part # 1.8L head as the late 412 (where the 1.8L first appeared)...and the bus uses the same part number 1.8L head as well. The 1.8l camshaft on all three vehicles (412,914,bus) was identical in the beginning. The bus later got a unique camshaft to support its lower torque band. The 1.7L and 1.8L 411, 412 and 914 all used the same cam. The 2.0L USA model used the same cam as well.
Valve sizes varied slightly from application to application....but not on the 1.8L...same across the board until middle years bus. 1.7L was the same across the board for all applications.
Yes...the 2.0L 914 was "made" by Porsche .....but that only means actually assembled by Porsche.
Porsche did not actually manufacture one single part of the 914 engine.
The other few "914 only" parts related to the engine are sheet metal items. Because the car was mid engine d...it used longer and reversed heat exchanger/headers and a different set of tins to match the 2.0L spark plug angle. the 2.0L had slightly larger diameter EFI runners which is hwy they went to 3 bolts so they could not be mixed up. The 2. plenum had a different shape....and a vertical bot non-unique TB.
The 2.0L TB also suck in flow compared to the 1.7/1.8 411, 412 914 plenum or the bus 1.8L plenum.
And the flywheel has a 5mm offset ring gear on the 914...but other than that...its a type 4 flywheel.
What I am trying to get across to "Porsche" owners looking at 914's...is realize where the car and engine came from and do a bit of research and you will find it not so painful.
This car is a true Porsche design. Fabulous car.....but only a few parts were actually built by Porsche so there are plenty of parts for it out there. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VWTortuga336
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2013
Posts: 125
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
So here's a real newbie question for you guys, I just pulled the carbs off the engine and discovered the intakes only have 3 studs. From what I have found online, only the 2.0L heads had 3 intake studs. Does this mean someone has already done my dirty work and converted this 1.7L to a 2.0L? I'm going to pull the engine and disassemble to tell for sure, but just wanted some more insight into what I'm seeing so far.
_________________
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| VWTortuga336 wrote: |
| So here's a real newbie question for you guys, I just pulled the carbs off the engine and discovered the intakes only have 3 studs. From what I have found online, only the 2.0L heads had 3 intake studs. Does this mean someone has already done my dirty work and converted this 1.7L to a 2.0L? I'm going to pull the engine and disassemble to tell for sure, but just wanted some more insight into what I'm seeing so far. |
Post a picture. Yes its quite possible. So thats one stud at each end ear of the manifold and one on the lower side center?
But....typically thats for FI manifolds. The 2.0 never had carbs from the factory. It would be interesting to see what carb manifolds are on it.
Also originally you seemed certain this is a 1.7....how so? From previous discussion....a case is just a case. It could be any size of type 4 engine once you take it apart. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VWTortuga336
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2013
Posts: 125
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21513
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
 yes....that is a 914 2.0l head. You can tell by the spark plug angle as well. And as you can see from the carb manifold it was a manifold for a 1.7 or 1.8 that was drilled to fit a 2.0.
You might have a decent set up right off if the heads have no cracks. Its worth it to have them, completely gone through by someone who knows type 4 heads....not just type 1. Either way you should get new seats.
Have them tested for cracks first. If no cracks or other damage. Put in new seats and valves. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
69 GVert
Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2014
Posts: 61
Location: San Jose, CA
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| yes....that is a 914 2.0l head. You can tell by the spark plug angle as well. And as you can see from the carb manifold it was a manifold for a 1.7 or 1.8 that was drilled to fit a 2.0. ... |
Well, yes, and no. That manifold comes that way so it can fit either head from whoever made it. I have a set that are exactly the same, except they are cast for single throat Baby Webers. (Those things ran sweet, very smooth and easy to tune compared to the dual throats I had before.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
