KEP Shifting issues - Tranny pulled - *SOLVED*

Wildthings · Samba Member Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351

You need free play in the clutch release arm itself, not just free play in the cable. If the release arm is sitting against the inside of the bellhousing while still contacting the fingers the clutch is not going to engage fully. The extra distance between the flywheel and engine would be the problem here, don't know enough about your conversion to say why things are as they are, but I do know that KEP didn't do the machining on my Vanagon-Subaru adapter correctly and I had to send it back to them to be reworked.

As for the studs or bolts (don't remember which now) supplied with my adapter kit. I decided they were junk and didn't use them but located some high quality automotive studs and used them instead.

thebusandus · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:28 am Post subject:

thebusandus · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:32 am Post subject:

ejon · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:54 am Post subject:

once you have the trans bolted back up to the engine. get an other person to help. each one turn the output flange at the same time trans in gear. if you can't turn it over the input shaft is jammed into the pilot bearing ( to long )

or you can just put some bolts in the flanges. wedge in some bars to turn it by your self

thebusandus · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:54 am Post subject:

thebusandus · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:09 pm Post subject:

ejon · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:35 pm Post subject:

Hey I called monty ( KEP) because we kinda sorta know each other . I've bought quite a few of there adapters.

when you use the term drive shaft ? that troughs me off VW's don't have one . he says with that motor there is no need to shorten the shaft, there plenty of space on the engine side, where most engine you do.

the cross shaft he said the same as I did, just weld up the stock one.

all that type adapter should be the same thickness 002 or 091

every so called heavy duty cross shaft I've seen, the steel is softer than VW's. the only thing HD about them is the arm's are thicker. plus fully welded. yet I've had those arm break off. when you look at the break the weld didn't penetrate into the shaft . this was on the gold plated type
The raw steel looking type never had a problem with..

a few years ago I had this same problem, after about 6 engine pulls, I found out that with this type TO bearing there two thickness's. only by having a stock pile of used TOB's

This was a VW motor up to a 002 trans, what it came down to was the endplay was to much.. a rebuild to care of that.
good luck I know what a pisser all thi sis

skills@eurocarsplus · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:10 pm Post subject:

everything looks ok to me. there is no need to cut the input shaft with this swap. cutting the end off won't matter, as the pilot bearing is just there, it has no bottom like a gland nut would, and it won't hit the Subaru crank
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tjet · Posted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 6:49 pm Post subject:

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but did make sure the bushing you installed in the end of the crank fits/slips on the tranny input shaft?

I had a similar problem on a non-vw. The pilot bearing ID was too small & I was able to push in the trans input shaft, even tho is was super tight & jambed up

thebusandus · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2014 5:16 pm Post subject:

Not sure what bushing you're talking about. I have had some issues with this HD crosshaft, I actually had to file the inner ring where the inner circlip fits as it wasn't allowing it to lock. I've probably uninstalled and installed this crosshaft 20 times now attempting to get it to fit correctly..

The TOB's seem to be identical, although the new one had one spring bent so I transferred both old springs to the new one in order for them to push evenly. All seems to be well, but I won't know until I attempt to drive it again, hopefully tomorrow.
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2.2 Suby powered - 75 Westy - Rita

Panamerican Highway - 2014-2017

Driftin · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:02 am Post subject:

Works great now! My Manx build with a Subaru 2.0T, 6 rib, 228mm KEP stage 2, 6 puck clutch, new late TOB is exhibiting the same problem. The hydraulic clutch was just installed last night and cycled to find that something is binding in the clutch. You can move the clutch arm enough to hear the TOB engage with the clutch fingers but then it like it hits a wall - 100 lb pedal. If you put the car into gear then move it back and forth with the clutch pedal depressed you can't get the clutch to fully disengage. Also the slave cylinders don't fully cycle. All new clutch parts but used 091. I'll be watching this thread to see how you solve the problem because I think I'm in the same boat.....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Fixed - I had the wrong size of master cylinder7/8" and switched to a 3/4". Also my hydraulic setup was 2" to high making the pedal hard to depress. You can see the Frankenclutch setup I have. Now that it works I will have to clean up my fab job. Great lightweight feel for a new 2 stage clutch.

thebusandus · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 5:21 pm Post subject:

Alright folks, exact same problem still happening. Just freaking tweaked on the thing for a week or so, took a while to get back in as the new starter had some fitment issues etc!

Can this be something internal to the transmission, or would that not make sense because it will shift while not running?

I cranked the clutch adjustment down to where essentially the TOB is on the fingers (hardly any pedal freeplay) to make sure it is disengaging fully, still the same result. It feels like I'm trying to press against a wall when trying to engage in gear, yet I don't hear any grinding either...

New - Clutch Cable/clevis pin, cleaned / lubed clutch cable tube, bowden tube, TOB, TOB Arm, TOB Arm bushing (HD Bronze).

It is a bit of a bear to press the clutch, could this stage 2 still be the freaking problem ( I say freaking while I mean much worse and am about to burn this thing to the fucking ground ). Beyond frustrated!
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2.2 Suby powered - 75 Westy - Rita

Panamerican Highway - 2014-2017

skills@eurocarsplus · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:08 pm Post subject:

if the trans worked before, not likely an issue there.

the stage 2 will feel like a dump truck clutch. lets go back to square 1 here. I think you are over adjusting your clutch, and you need to be careful as you can collapse the pressure plate. when that happens, it will feel like you are stepping on a water balloon.

that said, your throw out bearing SHOULD NOT be touching the pressure plate. it can be close as a razor blade, but should not be touching the p/p

take your clutch arm and by hand move it as if you are stepping on the clutch (pull arm to the front of the bus)

the minute you can't move it anymore is the moment your TOB is on the p/p.

adjust your wingnut till you can jusssst move the arm a 1/16 till you hit the p/p.

that should be good enough to 1) make sure the clutch is engaged and 2) give you enough throw to disengage it via the pedal.

are you sure that the 'lever' on the clutch pedal is in fact facing the correct way?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=415802

that is for a split bus, but should be the same for a bay. if I find the thread I am thinking of, I will post it.

having that arm on the wrong way will do all sorts of evil things
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thebusandus · Posted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:32 pm Post subject:

So, I did post the previous post after trying a few times to drive it. It is idle surging like no other so it was near impossible to actually drive in gear (if I started it in first I could not go this time around). However; I was actually able to shift into both first and second with further messing around tonight. I was really having to put some muscle behind it and I would have to do it quite quickly.

Unfortunately as I bought the bus non-running and the previous owner had put a new clutch in and was still "messing with the adjustment" I'm not exactly sure if the Transmission is totally okay, I am unsure if he was running into the same issues I was. Now that I've had a beer and a little while to calm down I am hoping it is a linkage and adjustment issue. I am not pulling the trans again until I've exhausted this possibility further. I am going to work on correcting the idle and will hopefully have more to add tomorrow.

Skills, thanks for all the advice. I backed up the adjustment so I can hear it tap. We shall see once it runs better how it acts. Also, don't think anyone's ever touched the pedal assembly but I will investigate.
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2.2 Suby powered - 75 Westy - Rita

Panamerican Highway - 2014-2017

skills@eurocarsplus · Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:13 am Post subject:

You should just barely move the arm to get contact.

Like I said, the stage 2 is like a dump truck clutch compared to the OE clutch. And tripple check the pedal arm for the correct position
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thebusandus · Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:21 pm Post subject:

I adjusted the cable further. So for it to be in the 3/4 - 7/8" of freeplay spec I can't hear the ting against the fingers when hand controlling the arm by hand. It is very close though so perhaps it is a razor thing margin and I don't have enough momentum to hear the ting.

I got some of the throttle issues sorted, tried it again. Definite blockage. When trying to really force it in to first it grinds then starts moving the bus forward. Argh.

This appears to be fine.

I did notice my clevis pin seems to be a bit off.. hmm.

Checked my order from aircooled.

211-721-335J Clutch Cable, 3215mm, 1971-79 Type 2, 211-721-335J
1 $7.95 $7.95
211-721-351A Clutch Cable Clevis Pin. 1972-79 Type 2, 211-721-351A
1 $2.95 $2.95
131-721-349 Clutch Cable Wing Nut, 1966-79 ALL MODELS, 131-721-349
1 $2.95 $2.95
211-721-361D Clutch Bowden Tube (Clutch Cable Sleeve), 1972-73 Beetle and Ghia, 1967-74 T2, 211-721-361D

The Clevis pin does say it is for my model, but it doesn't secure itself very well. I'll probably reinstall my old one. My bowden tube says it is actually not for my model, but the 74 and 75 both have the 002 5 Rib. Was this a mid year change or is it a typo at Aircooled ( I figured typo )

Where else can I search / try!? Is there a specific measurement of the amount of arm swing I should achieve when pressing on the pedal to make sure it in spec (that would tell me if infact I'm getting full range at the arm)..
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2.2 Suby powered - 75 Westy - Rita

Panamerican Highway - 2014-2017

skills@eurocarsplus · Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:26 pm Post subject:

your clevis is wrong for sure.

*uck the book adjusting the clutch....you need to adjust it till its where IT want's to be

I have 2 buses with 1/4" of play at the pedal and the westy has 1/8" at the pedal.

I will try and take a pic. I have a trans on the bench now. either way, get something in the cable end (a small bolt will work till you get the proper clevis)

I will be back with pix in a while. elbow deep in a mini cooper now...
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Wildthings · Samba Member Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351

You have an early style pin and maybe an early style cable. As a guess I would say the change from early to late occurred when VW went from the T1 engine to the T4 engine in '72 as the tranny mounting changed at that time. The early cable is shorter with the difference in length being mostly in the length of the clevis, IIRC.

thebusandus · Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:12 pm Post subject:

I believe aircooled.net must not be listing the correct clevis then. I will reinstall the old one.

The cable however is the same as the one I pulled, same length as well. It is a bit long perhaps. The differences from the earlier to later were that the earlier were shorter, so it must be the correct one (as it fits)
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2.2 Suby powered - 75 Westy - Rita

Panamerican Highway - 2014-2017

Tcash · Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:49 pm Post subject:

75 Bus - 5 Rib 002 Tranny
Listing looks right.
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/SearchResults.asp?Search=clutch+clevis+


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KEP Shifting issues - Tranny pulled - SOLVED
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