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CatLady '76 Riviera
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my59
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Joined: August 13, 2003
Posts: 3780
Location: connecting the dots
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I rebuilt a type 4 2.0 last winter/spring. The engine had a rod knock and low oil pressure- mechanic diagnosis- and after pulling the heads off, really hammered valve seats. With machine shop costs, shipping and parts and my unpaid labor it ran about 4k for machine shop, new cam, new lifters, new P&C, redone heads from Headflow Masters, new bearings, gaskets, oil, and etc.

It was fun but being the first complete rebuild I have ever done, an expensive gamble. The payoff will only come with time and miles. If you are going to get into it you and your bank account have to be committed.
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my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget.
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CatLady
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Posts: 83
Location: Denver
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aeromech wrote:
I assume your mechanic did a compression check and may have looked at the valve stem height to say that the valve seat dropped in #3. That's what happened to this guys bus.


He was on a cross country trip and kept driving with the bad cylinder. When he got here I helped him pull the engine and then he took the heads to Adrian for rebuild ($800). The guy (Mike) put it all back together but he found low compression in #3 cylinder. Turns out that this was caused by driving it with zero compression because of the valve seat but then wearing out the rings because he left the injector connected. So if you keep driving it much pull off the connector to that injector at least.


Deleted the pics so it wasn't a super long quote. Thanks for posting them. It's good to see the inside.

The mechanic didn't do a compression test as far as I know. He said that they "opened it up" and saw the #3 cylinder has dropped.
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'76 Riviera
2.0 Liter
FI
Type 4

'63 Bug
1600 cc, 12V
Restored interior, OG paint
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CatLady
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Joined: June 04, 2014
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

richparker wrote:
Have you tried Painters Grinding there in Denver. I know they do T1 engine but I'm not sure about t4s. Worth a shot. There's KCW in GJ also. Curtis4085 has had a good amount of dealings with Painters. Maybe you should send him a PM. I've never used them, I just know they are there. Good luck.


Yup- that's where I took the bus this time. They're right in Denver so it's much easier than the other place I went. Thank you. I hope I can figure something out. I'll contact Curtis. Thanks again!
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'76 Riviera
2.0 Liter
FI
Type 4

'63 Bug
1600 cc, 12V
Restored interior, OG paint
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CatLady
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
if it dropped a valve seat the damage will be easy to see from the outside. The valve stem will be a different height, and there will be little to no compression on that cylinder.

The bus should not be driven. You could use someone like Colin (Amskeptic) to help fix it but he is thru with that part of the country for the year.

if that happened to a bus I was responsible for I would mentally know that the bus would be down for at least a month. And, when I put it back together everything on that new motor would be right, not just the original issue fixed.

It is not a daily driver candidate. It will cost you much more to fix than any insurance company will cover if you use it as your primary car for one. For two it is a high theft vehicle if you start leaving it parked in places you can't see it like movie theater lots etc.


He said that when they "opened it up" they could see the dropped cylinder right away.

I haven't driven the bus for more than a few miles. I remember when it happened and I drove to where my van is and it's been parked except for the drive to the mechanic. I thought it just needed a tune up so I drove it.

Okay. I'm not sure what to do. I know I can get insured differently as a food truck but that's not the end of the issues, it sounds like.

Thank you.
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'76 Riviera
2.0 Liter
FI
Type 4

'63 Bug
1600 cc, 12V
Restored interior, OG paint
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CatLady
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lil' Lulu wrote:
I agree with others that cash put into a daily will pay off better in the long run. Yes, quality parts for a t4 are right about twice that of a t1. Accept no band-aids. Do it all or none if you decide to try to make it your dd.

To give you a reference, I have over $8000 in my t4 engine (now that same engine is $20,000 turnkey) and I did all but the machine work myself. Sure, it's not stock but I don't really see how you could even squeak by on <$5000. New parts and "new parts" are two different things. Get some references on the shop and check them.

Buying a used engine....meh.


I'm reading the "new parts and 'new parts'" as the wide variety of quality that is available or is it something else? I've seen posts debating parts and their manufacturers.

Don't know what to do.

Thanks for the info.
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'76 Riviera
2.0 Liter
FI
Type 4

'63 Bug
1600 cc, 12V
Restored interior, OG paint
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CatLady
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my59 wrote:
I rebuilt a type 4 2.0 last winter/spring. The engine had a rod knock and low oil pressure- mechanic diagnosis- and after pulling the heads off, really hammered valve seats. With machine shop costs, shipping and parts and my unpaid labor it ran about 4k for machine shop, new cam, new lifters, new P&C, redone heads from Headflow Masters, new bearings, gaskets, oil, and etc.

It was fun but being the first complete rebuild I have ever done, an expensive gamble. The payoff will only come with time and miles. If you are going to get into it you and your bank account have to be committed.


Thanks for the info. Much thinking to do.
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'76 Riviera
2.0 Liter
FI
Type 4

'63 Bug
1600 cc, 12V
Restored interior, OG paint
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CatLady wrote:

Don't know what to do.

Thanks for the info.


For now you need head work which doesn't by itself necessarily cost all that much by itself. The question comes in on how much other work you really need to do at the same time.

If someone can just remove the heads, have them rebuilt, and replace them for $1500 thus giving you 30,000 miles of life, would that be better for you than spending $4000 now and getting an engine that would hopefully last 100,000 miles if well treated?
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CatLady
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
CatLady wrote:

Don't know what to do.

Thanks for the info.


For now you need head work which doesn't by itself necessarily cost all that much by itself. The question comes in on how much other work you really need to do at the same time.

If someone can just remove the heads, have them rebuilt, and replace them for $1500 thus giving you 30,000 miles of life, would that be better for you than spending $4000 now and getting an engine that would hopefully last 100,000 miles if well treated?


Good to know! 30k miles would give me several years of use. Thank you! It won't be going on road trips, etc..
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'76 Riviera
2.0 Liter
FI
Type 4

'63 Bug
1600 cc, 12V
Restored interior, OG paint
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my59
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Joined: August 13, 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can pull the rockers off, remove the pushrods and tubes and pull the lifters out (keep in order of removal) and with a flashlight look in the lifter bore as you rotate the engine to see what kind of shape the cam lobes are in. The wear pattern will eventually make a depression in the tip of the lobe which tells you the cam is worn.

I did a really cheap "buy a set of $150 used heads and swap the hammered heads out" once, and got another 6k out of a type 4. It currently sits in the barn with 135 psi compression and most if not all the bearing coating in the bottom of a plastic bottle after an oil change; this was on a $400 used engine 'recently redone' sold to me by a guy doing a subie swap.

Spring for the Wilson book and start reading, as it will help when the shop calls with info.
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my59: Well son, my grandfather died before I got to drive it, so does that answer your question?
our79: sunroof bus w/camper interior and 2.0 FI
Other:'12 Jetta, '77 Benz 300D, and a 74 MG Midget.
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69rulz
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you spend over 3k on a stock rebuild and they reuse the crank, rods and flywheel, your going to have a bad time.
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airschooled
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

69rulz wrote:
If you spend over 3k on a stock rebuild and they reuse the crank, rods and flywheel, your going to have a bad time.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with reusing a flywheel, unless it is damaged. A good used T4 crank that hasn't been abused (over revved, over advanced timing, or run with a blown rod) will usually outlast a generation of owners. The T4 has been lucky to not have a plethora or aftermarket shit available for budget rebuilds like T1 owners have to weed through; there's a reason why those base engines go hundreds of thousands of miles on the original short block.

Robbie
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

69rulz wrote:
If you spend over 3k on a stock rebuild and they reuse the crank, rods and flywheel, your going to have a bad time.


My 1800 crank with somewhere in the 350-400K mile range will go back in again without ever having been reground and the 228 mm flywheel has never even been resurfaced and won't get it now. The rods will get resized and rebushed, nothing more.

There is a reason many of us prefer the tough T4 to the chintzy T1.
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timvw7476
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:06 pm    Post subject: :( Update to my loosing power and hesitant start Reply with quote

the only thing that annoys me is the tendency of type1 builders to be in the
midst of assembling THIS engine while ruminating about the pieces they
will use in their NEXT type1, INCORPORATE the improvements now!
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 6:15 pm    Post subject: Update on 76 Riveria Reply with quote

CatLady wrote:
Last I left The Samba I was told I needed an engine rebuild. Sad Update to my loosing power and hesitant start issue

I did get the engine rebuilt (and some other stuff too) at Vee W Unlimited at the rec of curtis4085. (If you want to all that was done, I'll type it up but wasn't sure if that was TMI VW style.) If you're in this part of the woods, I highly recommend them.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I've started cleaning up the interior to get ready for the summer food truck season. There was some lovely Pergo type flooring. I removed that and found the bottom painted black. I can't tell if it is POR15 or regular paint. There are a few small rust spots that look to be surface. I started treating them with muriatic acid. (Following the advice in this thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=363886&highlight=rust+converter) I'm not sure what else I should do to the floor? It had Reflectix on the bottom but from what I've read, I shouldn't put anything else that I can't easily remove?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Under the white vinyl panels looks to be Reflectix type material. Under that is another layer that is silver on top and a sticky black substance underneath. It looks like it might be Peel n' Seal. There's the same stuff in the footwell of the cab. The bus doesn't seem too loud, but my other vehicle is a cargo van that doesn't have any insulation or sound deadening materials so it's pretty loud. The bus is nice compared to the van. Smile After talking with curtis, I'm inclined to leave the Peel n' Seal for now as it seems quite the feat to remove it.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There are a few patches in the interior. This is the most dodgy one:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I think I'm going to go with new Reflectix for insulation. I'm torn between that and jute. I hope to keep the interior as temperate as possible. I'll also be adding new curtains and hopefully make some of the window quilts too. I've searched and read and read some more. If I've missed the holy grail of weather insulation, please let me know.
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