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ALIKA T3
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Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 6360
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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 Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 5:53 pm Post subject: 50 miles rebuilt engine snapped a stud. Do it again? |
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Hi there!
I freshly rebuilt this engine:
Link
Well, it didn't last long, about 50 miles.Yay!!! f@%ker!!
Damn, it was running so well that on my way to work I was thinking these WBX engines, once rebuilt, are not that bad (I hate them to the core, I prefer the Subaru flat4 I swapped 30 000 miles ago …)
I rebuilt it for my rental van, by pride. Never again.
On the way up a slight hill, soon after my good thoughts about this engine this morning, I got a slight loss of power then worse and worse. I look in the mirror:white/yellowish smoke. I quickly pull over.
There is some mayonnaise close to the breathing tower.
Well, I know what that is  Probably a snapped stud, that sonofabitch.
I gotta drop the engine again, but I was wondering if ARP makes (or still makes) WBX engine studs?
I cannot find them online anymore, but I could have sworn having read about them a few years back.
Also, VW studs have a reduced section in diameter for a reason I cannot understand. >>> If I can find some 12.9 grade metric threaded rod, can I make my own studs?
Thanks for the help 
Aloha!
Alika
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rubbachicken
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Joined: October 05, 2004
Posts: 3058
Location: socal
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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that's some shitty luck you are having there, i'd get the broken stud out, before outlaying any $$$ on new parts, be a shame to buy stuff and you can't get the stud out
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lucy our westy
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markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
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1vw4x4
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Joined: June 22, 2005
Posts: 472
Location: Pgh. PA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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ALIKA T3
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Joined: July 30, 2009
Posts: 6360
Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| rubbachicken wrote: |
| that's some shitty luck you are having there, i'd get the broken stud out, before outlaying any $$$ on new parts, be a shame to buy stuff and you can't get the stud out |
Yeah, no sh!t 
I stripped the engine after work in 1.5 hours, it's ready to get out of the van.
That's a carnage in there.
Coolant flooded the engine block, mixed up with oil, and it made its way up the intake I guess via the breather tower.
AFM and intake are full of some nasty sticky mayonnaise.
Some clear oil was spitting out the #4 cylinder
So I guess that's the one that cause all that mess, but it's hard to tell because all cylinders have been flooded.
I don't even know how that thing is possible, coolant didn't even leak outside the water jacket, that means the heads didn't move ,right?? 
Breather tower spillage
Hello nasty
Level is actually way over the maximum.
4 spark plugs were flooded
1.5 hours later
Intake flooded
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: 50 miles rebuilt engine snapped a stud. Do it again? |
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| ALIKA T3 wrote: |
| Also, VW studs have a reduced section in diameter for a reason I cannot understand. >>> If I can find some 12.9 grade metric threaded rod, can I make my own studs? |
I suspect the reduced cross section is there to allow the stud to not be too stiff and thus pull the threads out of the block. This will a big problem on the "large" stud Type 1 engines. |
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ALIKA T3
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Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| ALIKA T3 wrote: |
So it has some elasticity in it?
What tensile strength is it? 12.9?
I'm thinking buying a 10x1.5 12.9 class threaded rod and make my own studs, those suckers are expensive "snappers" 
What do you think of that? |
Anything has some elasticity to it even a rock. You want a stud that will supply sufficient pressure to the heads over a wide range of temperatures so that they don't lift off the top of the jugs and leak, but at the same time not pull the threads, crack the heads, or break the studs. I suspect that if you go larger in diameter you will have problem with the threads pulling and with the heads cracking, while if you go with the same diameter in a threaded rod you will get stud breakage. |
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rubbachicken
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Location: socal
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:35 am Post subject: |
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again, you should get the broken stud out first, no point spending $ if you can't
you didn't take a good look at the studs before you did the rebuild ?
which one broke, i'm guessing one of the lower ones, not that it really matters 
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lucy our westy
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markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
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Robw_z
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Joined: April 28, 2007
Posts: 983
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 4:37 am Post subject: |
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This is one of my greatest WBX fears. Cheers to you for not totally freaking out in your post.
I often brainstorm in my head about what to do to bring peace of mind about this problem if I ever rebuild my WBX.
I too once thought thicker, less breakable studs were the answer but according to posts I've read the elasticity is important. I'm not 100% sold on that idea but I never got a mechanical engineering degree either. Firm, non-elastic studs are the norm on most engines... But in the WBX design the studs are much longer than normal, so perhaps the metal expansion is more exaggerated as well? And the case does have less meat for the threads than your average engine block.
I've thought of painting the studs with POR-15... so they theoretically wouldn't corrode over time, might even gain some negligible strength.
I'm not even sure if a set of brand new studs could bring peace of mind, I've become cynical about the quality of most new parts in general, mostly from reading others posts about the issue but also from some personal experience.
Keep us posted!
-Rob |
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ftp2leta
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morymob
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:29 am Post subject: |
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I agree, cant see a broken stud as no more than the usual compression leak , never dumping a mix like that.l would look at oil cooler failure from slo to max fail.got rid of mine to prevent a ol dump,, my 1.9s ran 4 yrs without 1, my 2cts.
Last edited by morymob on Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:37 am; edited 2 times in total |
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1vw4x4
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Joined: June 22, 2005
Posts: 472
Location: Pgh. PA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:29 am Post subject: |
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You did a real nice job painting everything and cleaning everything.
Even spent a lot of money on aftermarket parts I see......
I've never done much of this, and never had ANY of the 30 plus vanagon engines I've rebuilt come apart prematurely. Go figure! |
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tschroeder0
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Joined: April 14, 2008
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Location: Boulder CO
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| yes, what Ben/morymob said. something else is happening here, obviously something causing oil and coolant to mix!? |
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Zeitgeist 13
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:05 am Post subject: |
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I wonder if the heat exchanger burst, or one of the cylinder base o-rings got pinched upon assembly. Bummer
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ALIKA T3
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Joined: July 30, 2009
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Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| tschroeder0 wrote: |
| yes, what Ben/morymob said. something else is happening here, obviously something causing oil and coolant to mix!? |
Thank you everybody for all the valuable info, it helps me a lot, as usual here!
I will put original studs then.
I gotta pull the rocker arm assemblies and grab the nuts with pliers and see which studs come out.
I read many threads Tencent advised on, and followed exact procedure as far as assembling heads and using the right chemicals.
As far as stud inspection, well, I don't have a UV light or an X-ray to see cracks in the metal, they weren't corroded externally, but the one I broke removing it broke twice trying to removing it!!
I had a stud snapping , the ones that are under the rocker arm, close to another. I drilled and tapped since the local vanagon shop told me to do so with confidence. I inspected the stud and you see there was a rust line through the metal, but invisible crackline from outside.
It broke right before 50Nm torque, Tencent advises for 55, I didn't do it because they already don't feel strong when you tighten them, so I went by the book.
I didn't have time to pull the head cover on the passenger side, since it was getting dark in the street, I had to wrap up but intake is all full of that nasty stuff.
My theory is a jug moved, I know they can, it happened to a friend, no external leak.
I guess I'm a stage further? Internal coolant leak>flood engine oil so high that it siphoned into the breather tower back to intake flooding 4 cylinders??
It all happened in 100 yards driving a slight short hill, it was plentuy powerful, then suddendly a little loss of power I let go off the throttle to listen to engine, I then re-accelerate, it's getting worse: check out rear view mirror: holy crap!! I'm burning oil!!!: pull over right away.
As far as the oil heat exchanger, I have my fingers crossed that you guys are right and that the sucker failed miserably, but I did replace it with a more recent unit from a Tdi. I will pressure test it with a garden hose.
It's 4 am here, I'm about to leave working on a neighbor island for a couple days, I'll see if sunday I have time to push the diagnosing further before pulling the heads apart.
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Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
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AtlasShrugged
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Joined: October 30, 2008
Posts: 1605
Location: Decatur, Ga. USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| morymob wrote: |
| I agree, cant see a broken stud as no more than the usual compression leak , never dumping a mix like that.l would look at oil cooler failure from slo to max fail.got rid of mine to prevent a ol dump,, my 1.9s ran 4 yrs without 1, my 2cts. |
I have to agree with Mory..a broken head stud is not the problem. Did you use a "clicker" torque wrench or a "bar" style when doing the heads? A "clicker" can be problematic.
Oil/coolant mix would indicate a bad oil cooler..or a cracked engine case internally (maybe where the broken stud was repaired and was tapped could be leaking coolant back into the oil sump))..those are the only two locations where oil and coolant are close together. The odds on bet would be the oil cooler. Part number 068117021B
I saw an earlier post where you had a thermostat problem..if it was on this engine it may have pooched the oil cooler. That oil cooler is not too expensive and I like to replace mine if it looks original or over ten years old. (I have several VAG cars with the same style oil cooler)
HansAuto has the cooler for $29..or Bus Depot, most online Vanagon parts stores and Van Cafe have them for $54/$56
If it was me..I would clean up the coolant/oil mess and put a $29 oil cooler on the engine. Run the engine with several gallons of the most inexpensive engine oil you can find, two or three times to flush the coolant/oil from the block.
See if that cures the problem. Here is a picture of an leaking oil cooler test.
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insyncro
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Let me know if you need any particular parts I may have hanging around.
Very sorry to see multiple issues for you.
Don't give up on the WBX.
My first WBX rebuild lasted maybe 500 miles.
It was resealed over a decade ago and I have learned a ton since.
Yes, the oil cooler and torque wrench type are good starting points to investigate. |
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crazyvwvanman
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Joined: January 28, 2008
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:28 am Post subject: |
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A wbx head stud failure resulting in coolant loss through the nut sealing area is hardly a rare occurrence and the lower 4 head studs on each side are inside the valve cover. All 16 studs pass through the water jackets and their nuts get a yellow sealant on them the keep coolant from seeping past. Any pressurized coolant leaking past the lower ones goes into the valve cover and then drains through the pushrod tubes into the sump to mix with the oil. Even a partial failure of one of these 8 lower studs can result in coolant mixing with the oil like experienced in this case.
Mark |
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AtlasShrugged
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| Mark..true-enough. |
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RallyDriver
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Location: Delaware, Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:11 am Post subject: |
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That looks like oil cooler failure to me for sure. The pancake batter mix of emulsified oil and coolant is a mess. I dealt with this on a 1.8T Jetta customer car earlier this year. I ended up replacing the oil cooler and then filling the cooling system with straight simple green and running the car up to temp long enough for it to dissolve all the oil in the cooling system. Flushed the cooling system, refilled with straight water and ran up to operating temps again, then flush that out. I filled the system with the correct mix of G12 and water and sent the customer on their way. That car has been back to the shop twice for regular maintenance and we have had no further cooling problems. I did siphon a half inch of residual oil out of the coolant reservoir on its first visit back but we've had no lissues with cooling system since the repair. I hate to see you tear that engine down if you don't have to.
Good luck!
Brett |
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