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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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 Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 12:16 am Post subject: Re: Sean's Mild Type 4 2056cc Build |
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| GTV wrote: |
| udidwht wrote: |
| Air Cooleds Only wrote: |
| Bad bug wrote: |
The best thing for you to do is talk to Jake Raby. Remember he gave all of us some good advise on 96mm in a bus. They don't stay round in the long run. You could rebuild the engine with t1 94mm pistons. As said before talk to Jake Raby, also ask him about using the t1 94mm pistons in your 94mm bus sleeves. |
You're probably correct, except I lost Jakes cell no. 
Jake has noted several times he has not tested the 96 birals . |
Correct...Jake has no comment on the Biral 96mm AA pistons, he's NOT tested them.
I myself and a 1/2 dozen others I know with varying mileage have had good luck with them in a bus application so far. I'm currently approaching 14,XXX miles with excellent results thus far. One of the 1/2 dozen I know is approaching 55,XXX miles.
If you go with the birals keep the compression between 7.8 - 8.0 and be sure to open the heads to 42x36mm. Also do NOT use a stock exhaust. Get your hands on a 72-74 heater box setup and use a Thunderbird or S&S header if you can source one.
Do not use the stock cam either...Web or nothing. Also get rid of the stock adjusters and go with Porsche swivel adjusters. |
How were you able to keep the compression down? Open up the chambers? Dish the pistons? Lots of deck?
I have to say, biral 96's do look like the easy solution. After adding up the variables, stroking a type 4 even modestly, looks to be much more of a hassle and a LOT more expense than a type one.
IMO, counterweighting the crank isn't just for high rpm's, it makes for a smoother running engine. I think the $100-$200(?) extra is well worth it. Can anyone with type 4 experience confirm or deny this?
What is stock valve size? And what's so special about the 72-74 exhaust? |
The 72-74 set up flows better than the later ones.
You'll need to CC the heads before you decide what if any shims you'll need to add under the base of your cylinders.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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GTV
Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2004
Posts: 2084
Location: Si'ahl
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Sean's Mild Type 4 2056cc Build |
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| udidwht wrote: |
The 72-74 set up flows better than the later ones.
You'll need to CC the heads before you decide what if any shims you'll need to add under the base of your cylinders.
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Well yeah, I assumed they flowed better, just digging for more specifics, pictures, etc.
I understand the heads need to be CC'd, I was just curious to know what you did in your application: what your CC and deck height are.
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:20 am Post subject: Re: Sean's Mild Type 4 2056cc Build |
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| GTV wrote: |
| udidwht wrote: |
The 72-74 set up flows better than the later ones.
You'll need to CC the heads before you decide what if any shims you'll need to add under the base of your cylinders.
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Well yeah, I assumed they flowed better, just digging for more specifics, pictures, etc.
I understand the heads need to be CC'd, I was just curious to know what you did in your application: what your CC and deck height are. |
Off the top of head if I remember correct my heads cc'd out at ~54cc then I also had to take into consideration the valve pocket size as well which was roughly 2-2.5 cc additional for each cylinder.
For photos of the exhaust look in my gallery.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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Air Cooleds Only
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2009
Posts: 157
Location: Prescott, AZ
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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Had a little delay .... 
We are sticking with Sean's 1800cc Case. Checked out the crank bores today and they looked good.
Sean will be heading to Brothers Machine tomorrow for lifter bore sleeves and possible Deck Cut.
Love how solid these engine case's are. They hold up so much better than T1 mag cases!
I forgot I had a complete 1.8L kicking around...
Thoughts of going back to FI are starting to spread 
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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And when it's all done it should sound as mine...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqScv6lBIDI&feature=em-upload_owner
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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Air Cooleds Only
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2009
Posts: 157
Location: Prescott, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Sean's Mild Type 4 2056cc Build |
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Sorry for the lack of updates...
Sean's engine has been together for a while now. He had about 800 miles on it and it did not seem to be running all that great. Did a Valve Adjust & Compression Check. All Cylinders were at 100 psi. We tore down the top end and the 96 biral cylinders did not look that great. I dial bored them, & they were out of round .002-.003. AA sent us a new set of cylinders w/rings and put it back together.
Now a 1000miles in , we have 100psi on all 4 again. We have yet to tear down again....
So getting prepared for the next step. Looking to go with cast iron cylinders. Ive heard about using used German 94mm cylinders & have them bored and honed to 96mm. I'm not sure I have any 94's around the shop, I do have some 93's.
Would these be a adequate cylinder for converting to 96mm ?
Should we even go with 96's for a bus? Stick with 94's ? Buy new???
Let me know your thoughts.
Thanks.
Chris
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GTV
Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2004
Posts: 2084
Location: Si'ahl
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Sean's Mild Type 4 2056cc Build |
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At this point, I would use what is proven (stock 94's). Do you really want to fix it a third time?
I know you opened up the chambers, will they still work with a smaller 94 bore, or are you stuck with 96's?
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Air Cooleds Only
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2009
Posts: 157
Location: Prescott, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Sean's Mild Type 4 2056cc Build |
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| GTV wrote: |
At this point, I would use what is proven (stock 94's). Do you really want to fix it a third time?
I know you opened up the chambers, will they still work with a smaller 94 bore, or are you stuck with 96's? |
No I don't.
I did un-shroud the valves , when I do that I go out to the inner diameter of the cylinder.
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mark tucker
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Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Sean's Mild Type 4 2056cc Build |
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| might need to rethink the head stud torque.and possiably add 8 more studs. install on empty case and then check to see the cylinder distortment.it may just need to be"torque plate honed"and lower torquing of studs. but it all needs to be checked out. Im thinken on a set of the birails for my type 1.wish i had a set to eff with first to see if they will do what I want. |
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Air Cooleds Only
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2009
Posts: 157
Location: Prescott, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: Sean's Mild Type 4 2056cc Build |
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| mark tucker wrote: |
| might need to rethink the head stud torque.and possiably add 8 more studs. |
Not happening.
| mark tucker wrote: |
| install on empty case and then check to see the cylinder distortment.it may just need to be"torque plate honed"and lower torquing of studs. |
When they were fresh out of the box, the cylinders measured .001 taper and .0005-.0012 out of round. I'll be curious to see if those numbers have changed once I take it apart.
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nextgen
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 6027
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Sean's Mild Type 4 2056cc Build |
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As one of the guys mentioned the Type IV Forum is where to go.
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewforum.php?f=1
But in my opinion after trying to get guys to understand the advantages of T-4 over T-1 and the bus always being my Achilles heel, I have learned a few things from the beatings.
I love T-4 but that two ton bus should have been a 6 cylinder. I think you are on the right track, stroke for torque. For sure a Cam. Dump the single carb, 36 not 40 Weber or Dells. The smaller carbs are better for low end torque. Talk Web cam specificity for torque after you decide on the other parts. Stock Cam is garbage. Stock 71mm 2.0 rods are fine but a bit longer may be better, depending on budget. BALANCE everything. Extractor Exhaust. Now the thorn in my T-4 side is as the guys said check the valve seats. Change them if any doubts for a correct interference fit. In a Bug or 914 I have never seen a seat fail but in a heavy non aerodynamic bus you have to expect hot heads. For sure check the heads and 2.0 pistons are fine, do keep the compression in the area of 8 to 1 no more, pushing 2 tons is going to create enough heat on mountain hill . Of course bigger valves will help but we are talking buck. Bottom line with $3000 stay close to 2.0.
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email: [email protected]
The TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL
BEETLE MAGNETIC DEFLECTOR SHIELDS
LETS TALK DUBS https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+cali+ghia https://letstalkdubs.libsyn.com/ep-200-joe-cali-ty...qI3xJTCzjs |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7215
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Sean's Mild Type 4 2056cc Build |
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Something is definitely! not right. Even birals do not die after only 1000 miles, and especially not up in BC. Is all the correct cool tin in position ? Have you ditched the lower cool tin under the cylinders ?
What did the engine specs end up being ? - I lost track sometwhere.
especially cam, CR, Heads (valves) induction, heater box type and exhaust.
T |
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:56 am Post subject: Re: Sean's Mild Type 4 2056cc Build |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
Something is definitely! not right. Even birals do not die after only 1000 miles, and especially not up in BC. Is all the correct cool tin in position ? Have you ditched the lower cool tin under the cylinders ?
What did the engine specs end up being ? - I lost track sometwhere.
especially cam, CR, Heads (valves) induction, heater box type and exhaust.
T |
I'm with you on this. I and 1/2 dozen others I know are NOT having issues running the AA 96mm birals. I'm going to venture to say it is an issue relating to deck height not being set right.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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Air Cooleds Only
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2009
Posts: 157
Location: Prescott, AZ
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Sean's Mild Type 4 2056cc Build |
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Engine specs are:
71mm Crank
96mm Bore
.053 Deck Height
61CC Chamber
2CC Piston Pocket
8:1 Compression
Scat C25 Cam
Dual 44 HPMX
All the tin is in place w/ thermostat.
The engine actually runs cool. I would love to know whats going on as well.
udidwht, have you done a compression check on your engine with birals?
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: Sean's Mild Type 4 2056cc Build |
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| Air Cooleds Only wrote: |
Engine specs are:
71mm Crank
96mm Bore
.053 Deck Height
61CC Chamber
2CC Piston Pocket
8:1 Compression
Scat C25 Cam
Dual 44 HPMX
All the tin is in place w/ thermostat.
The engine actually runs cool. I would love to know whats going on as well.
udidwht, have you done a compression check on your engine with birals? |
I'm at 15,XXX miles and the bus is running very strong...no reason for a compression check at this point. I did do a leak-down test at roughly 15XX miles and the results were 4-6% per cylinder which is well within limits...it's actually outstanding.
Who did your head work? I'm leaning at deck height issue or head work. It's also possible (slim) that with the slow down in China the quality has dropped on the AA's. But that is very slim. Everyone I know who's using them is having great luck so far.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7215
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:29 pm Post subject: Re: Sean's Mild Type 4 2056cc Build |
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Well, if the cylinders are out of round, there out of round. but it still does not sound right. I´m beginning to suspect some bad valve seat work or a fuel wash down.
Did you take compression test when you installed the new cylinders and rings?
60 CC in the chambers is A LOT! The deck is OK without being perfect.
Why are you using 44 mm IDF´s on a little engine like that ?
T |
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Bashr52
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Joined: July 16, 2006
Posts: 5666
Location: On an island in VA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:26 am Post subject: Re: Sean's Mild Type 4 2056cc Build |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
Well, if the cylinders are out of round, there out of round. but it still does not sound right. I´m beginning to suspect some bad valve seat work or a fuel wash down.
Did you take compression test when you installed the new cylinders and rings?
60 CC in the chambers is A LOT! The deck is OK without being perfect.
Why are you using 44 mm IDF´s on a little engine like that ?
T |
I agree, 44's are a bit big on this setup. If you want to step down to 40's I've got a set I'll trade you. |
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Air Cooleds Only
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2009
Posts: 157
Location: Prescott, AZ
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Sean's Mild Type 4 2056cc Build |
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I'll do a leak down to isolate the compression issue.
I did the chamber work, had a local shop do the valve job.
I did not compression check when they were fresh.
Performance wise the engine hasn't decreased in performance.
The reason for 44's, was to have in case the owner wants to go bigger cc's in the future.
udidwht : What year(s) did you & your friends buy the birals?
Bashr52: Thanks for the trade offer 
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Alstrup
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Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7215
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: Sean's Mild Type 4 2056cc Build |
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Hang on!
I got it. We all seemed to focus on the cranking poressure alone. That is where we go wrong. - A 2 liter engine with the C25 cam and only 8-1 CR WILL NOT PUMP MORE THAN TAT!!! due to the bleed of with more than stock duration.
It took a while before I saw it.
T |
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:18 am Post subject: Re: Sean's Mild Type 4 2056cc Build |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
Hang on!
I got it. We all seemed to focus on the cranking poressure alone. That is where we go wrong. - A 2 liter engine with the C25 cam and only 8-1 CR WILL NOT PUMP MORE THAN TAT!!! due to the bleed of with more than stock duration.
It took a while before I saw it.
T |
Indeed the added duration will be the key factor. Exactly how much compared to stock? Stock compression readings are generally in the 130-140 range. He'd also be in a much better position with 40mm carbs.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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