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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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 Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| theKbStockpiler wrote: |
| Cold weather enrichment is the biggest issue other than altitudes in my opinion. |
That was solved in the 70's with thermostatic heated air cleaners.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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raul arrese
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Joined: July 23, 2006
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Location: miami florida
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| Juanito84 wrote: |
The best carburetor set ups can out perform your average fuel injection system in every way shape and form. But the best fuel injection set ups will leave your average carburetor in the dust in most every way except cost. When it comes down to it, the most developed fuel injection system will out perform the most developed carburetor but will likely cost ten times the price or more.
Whatever you do, have fun doing it. But personally I'm not going too get excited about putting on this new fangled technology on my car until hovering systems become available. |
By hearing what your saying about fuel injection , Yeah I think you should stick to carbs ...
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| raul arrese wrote: |
| Juanito84 wrote: |
The best carburetor set ups can out perform your average fuel injection system in every way shape and form. But the best fuel injection set ups will leave your average carburetor in the dust in most every way except cost. When it comes down to it, the most developed fuel injection system will out perform the most developed carburetor but will likely cost ten times the price or more.
Whatever you do, have fun doing it. But personally I'm not going too get excited about putting on this new fangled technology on my car until hovering systems become available. |
By hearing what your saying about fuel injection , Yeah I think you should stick to carbs ... |
My other car has mechanical fuel injection. That's how I get such good fuel mileage out of it.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Boolean
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Joined: January 19, 2012
Posts: 1712
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Buying a pair of new high end carbs, paying for jets and other stuff can easily be as much as a complete MS system.
I cant believe there are still people who claim that carbs are better than FI...
I do get the fascination of making something work really good, whatever the technology.
I have a cal. 60 flintlock pistol, and as much as I love learning to cut flints and making it perform as good as possible - I would never claim it to be better than a modern gun.
More manly maybe. 
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26785
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Buying cheap stuff, and used parts, and fitting it together yourself maybe you can have a ok Megasquirt system for a thousand, maybe.
To do the same with the carbs I was talking about, costs 400-500$
Yes port FI is way cool but somebody has to stick up for carbs, nobody else doing it. Actually I'll quit. More suckers trying to go megasquirt means cheaper carbs for me. |
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Quokka42
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Joined: December 02, 2010
Posts: 3117
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:27 am Post subject: |
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Oh, I still like carbs - they look much better, they are more hands on, and FI kind of takes the challenge out of it. 
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| raul arrese wrote: |
| Juanito84 wrote: |
The best carburetor set ups can out perform your average fuel injection system in every way shape and form. But the best fuel injection set ups will leave your average carburetor in the dust in most every way except cost. When it comes down to it, the most developed fuel injection system will out perform the most developed carburetor but will likely cost ten times the price or more.
Whatever you do, have fun doing it. But personally I'm not going too get excited about putting on this new fangled technology on my car until hovering systems become available. |
By hearing what your saying about fuel injection , Yeah I think you should stick to carbs ... |
There are plenty of examples of carbureted cars out there that get decent fuel mileage, have plenty of power and still meet early 90's emission standards. At the same time I've seen cars get less fuel mileage and have less power whenever someone decides to put fuel injection on them. If you want good fuel mileage and/or power carbs do a pretty good job of both. Now if you want 2015 emissions then ya, you probably won't get that with a carb.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Quokka42
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Joined: December 02, 2010
Posts: 3117
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:02 am Post subject: |
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Not fair to compare well sorted carbs to an incompetently set up FI. It is true carbs can almost equal FI at WOT, but we do most of our driving at partial throttle and a lot at less than optimum engine speeds, which is where a well-sorted FI shines.
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quokka42 wrote: |
| Not fair to compare well sorted carbs to an incompetently set up FI. It is true carbs can almost equal FI at WOT, but we do most of our driving at partial throttle and a lot at less than optimum engine speeds, which is where a well-sorted FI shines. |
I was talking about manufactured cars like Buick and Geo. I've seen some of the older carbureted Buick LeSabres rated at nearly 30mpg. I've also known a few who claimed they got over 30mpg in them. When FI first came out on them they still got pretty good mileage. I can attest to a 1996 FI LeSabre getting 35mpg on hwys and having plenty of power. My Pa liked them so much he got a 2006 Buick Century. Big mistake. Although much smaller than the LeSabre it got less than 20mpg, usually around 15mph hwy, and didn't have near the acceleration the older Buicks had. Huge difference in the wrong direction.
I don't think that precise fuel metering is as important to power or fuel mileage as precise timing is. With a carb you might be getting 14.5:1 in one cylinder, 14:1 in another and 15:1 in another. While lining them up will help a little if you just leaned the average A/F ratio out to around 16.5:1 (16:1 in one cylinder and 17:1 in another, etc.) and advanced the timing some 10 to 20° more than what most people seem to be running at part throttle, violà! 40mpg!
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raul arrese
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Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 1329
Location: miami florida
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:53 am Post subject: |
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[quote juanito84 ]I don't think that precise fuel metering is as important to power or fuel mileage as precise timing is.
this is exactly why fuel injection shines over carbs
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| raul arrese wrote: |
[quote juanito84 ]I don't think that precise fuel metering is as important to power or fuel mileage as precise timing is.
this is exactly why fuel injection shines over carbs |
??
Translation:
I don't think fuel injection is as important to power or fuel mileage as a well designed ignition system is.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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raul arrese
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Location: miami florida
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c.ruber
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Joined: January 23, 2005
Posts: 634
Location: Mid TN
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:41 am Post subject: |
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What's a well designed ignition system these days??? I've run old cst iron distributors and a Mallory unilite with a CDI box.... I feel that a crank trigger that is tunable with a computer will be more accurate than something that relies on gear drives and other mechanical drives that wear over time.
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Eaallred
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Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| Juanito84 wrote: |
| When FI first came out on them they still got pretty good mileage. I can attest to a 1996 FI LeSabre getting 35mpg on hwys and having plenty of power. My Pa liked them so much he got a 2006 Buick Century. Big mistake. Although much smaller than the LeSabre it got less than 20mpg, usually around 15mph hwy, and didn't have near the acceleration the older Buicks had. Huge difference in the wrong direction. |
It's not the EFI that has gone bad, it's that cars have gotten much heavier with safety standard becoming more and more stringent, as well as the automotive customers demand for comfort and the feel of quality inside a car.
Modern EFI engines are incredibly efficient, stick one of the new engines into an older car that was getting 30 mpg, and you'll see a sizable increase in MPG.
As for the capability of EFI and MPG, just look what I did a few years ago with my car. 2276cc, at the time running low 12's at the track, and I managed to get 39.97mpg while holding 70mph for an hour cruise. That was fill up to fill up, a one hour drive on the local freeways. MPH and distance measured by GPS. I could not have done that with either a carburetor or a distributor. Sorry, but carbs and/or distributors can't touch the modern stuff for performance or reliability. People can argue it all they want, but until a carbureted full-bodied VW runs low 12's and hits 40 mpg while holding 70 mph, I stand behind the statement.
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Eaallred
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Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| Juanito84 wrote: |
| When FI first came out on them they still got pretty good mileage. I can attest to a 1996 FI LeSabre getting 35mpg on hwys and having plenty of power. My Pa liked them so much he got a 2006 Buick Century. Big mistake. Although much smaller than the LeSabre it got less than 20mpg, usually around 15mph hwy, and didn't have near the acceleration the older Buicks had. Huge difference in the wrong direction. |
It's not the EFI that has gone bad, it's that cars have gotten much heavier with safety standard becoming more and more stringent, as well as the automotive customers demand for comfort and the feel of quality inside a car.
Modern EFI engines are incredibly efficient, stick one of the new engines into an older car that was getting 30 mpg, and you'll see a sizable increase in MPG.
As for the capability of EFI and MPG, just look what I did a few years ago with my car. 2276cc, at the time running low 12's at the track, and I managed to get 39.97mpg while holding 70mph for an hour cruise. That was fill up to fill up, a one hour drive on the local freeways. MPH and distance measured by GPS. I could not have done that with either a carburetor or a distributor. Sorry, but carbs and/or distributors can't touch the modern stuff for performance or reliability. People can argue it all they want, but until a carbureted full-bodied VW runs low 12's and hits 40 mpg while holding 70 mph, I stand behind the statement.
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Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
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Dale M.
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Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| c.ruber wrote: |
| What's a well designed ignition system these days??? I've run old cst iron distributors and a Mallory unilite with a CDI box.... I feel that a crank trigger that is tunable with a computer will be more accurate than something that relies on gear drives and other mechanical drives that wear over time. |
You are correct ... Crank fire ignition run off the same EFI box as fuel is most efficient and most systems today use COP (coil on plugs) distributors are pretty much thing of the past.... And there are coils out there that produce 50,000-60,000 volts which is equal to or better than after market ignition boxes used with distributors...
Dale
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raul arrese
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Joined: July 23, 2006
Posts: 1329
Location: miami florida
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
| c.ruber wrote: |
| What's a well designed ignition system these days??? I've run old cst iron distributors and a Mallory unilite with a CDI box.... I feel that a crank trigger that is tunable with a computer will be more accurate than something that relies on gear drives and other mechanical drives that wear over time. |
You are correct ... Crank fire ignition run off the same EFI box as fuel is most efficient and most systems today use COP (coil on plugs) distributors are pretty much thing of the past.... And there are coils out there that produce 50,000-60,000 volts which is equal to or better than after market ignition boxes used with distributors...
Dale |
Yes sir !!!!!!
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RHough
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| modok wrote: |
The weber and dellorto carbs used on Alfas though the 80's did become the most highly developed of their kind, many small design changes compared to the ones of the 70's, which is what todays "webers" are.
dellorto was bought out of the car business, and the tooling destroyed. Maybe the company that did that also made catalytic converters. 
Weber also never sold the improved weber IDF to the aftermarket, not sure why, probably no one asked for it. Car buffs don't drive in the cold and don't care about emissions right???
Ultimately, what kills IR carbs is you can no longer have vented float bowls! Emissions after being parked 
FI is great but most advancements are two steps forward, one back. sometimes just one forward, one back, and your in the same place but stepped in a different puddle. |
I think Dell'Orto is still in the car business with EFI?
I've never heard that you can't have bowl vents? I know that float bowl vent must 'see' the same pressure as the intake. The bowl vents are in the choke for that reason. Carbs in the emission era did have some issues with evaporative emissions but I don't agree that was the main cause of their demise.
Somewhere around 1981 or 2 the law changed. Prior to the changes a carb/engine/trans/vehicle combo was legal for sale is an *average* example passed the tests. After the changes the *worst case* combo could not fail and the manufacturers were required to warranty major components for longer. A worn carb can cause a car to fail an emissions test. The manufacturers didn't want to be buying new carbs for 5-7 year old cars and they ran like crap anyway.
In the USA the state of California has different emissions requirements than the other 49 states. On some model this meant completely different intake/carb setups for California. In most cases the same EFI hardware can be programmed to meet either specification and in many cases meet both standards using the same parts and programming.
EFI has improved fuel mileage, reduced emissions, improved drivability, and reduced maintenance requirements when compared to the carburetor systems EFI replaced. I don't think a case can be made for carbs based on performance.
That said; as a car guy I agree with Quokka42:
| Quote: |
| Oh, I still like carbs - they look much better, they are more hands on, and FI kind of takes the challenge out of it. |
There is something satisfying about changing a brass bit and having the instant gratification of seeing results while you stand in a cloud of Eau'de Unleaded. I'm sure they will have EFI systems that you can tune with a smartphone soon (if not already) but I'm not done having fun with carbs. |
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raul arrese
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c.ruber
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Location: Mid TN
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| Posted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:03 am Post subject: |
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So the reason I started this post is because I have been fighting with a set of old IDAs on my 2276. It seems that there were several problems that I was fighting at once. I had a twisted throttle shaft and ignition problems with the unilite. I had to de-engineer and simplify the engine to trouble shoot all the problems that I had going on. I'll admit that I'm no pro at tuning carbs and this was a real learning experience with the number of discrepancies that had accumulated. Sorting all of them out and correcting each one as I went was very time consuming and frustrating. I realize that with more complex engine management systems there are inherent complexities as well. Will trouble shooting be a more simple task with EFI and a modern ignition system?
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