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NewTechnicIan
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, what with that scintillating teaser, I'm betting you are all wondering what I could be doing to my front end. Well, lemme tell ya. I'm about halfway through a front clip replacement that, once complete, will put me so close to finishing up this body that I can almost taste it....

I've not seen a really comprehensive front clip replacement section in most people's blogs so I'll try to be as detailed as possible for anyone who happens to search this in the future.
Most people talk about measuring 1000x and then cutting and hoping for the best. I honestly couldn't think of a way that I wouldn't mess that up so I decided to go with a no-measure, no-muss, no-fuss, no-'uffin around version. We'll see how it goes!

First thing's first, if I'm going to fit this new clip like stock, I need plenty of points to jig off of. I brought both my fenders and my hood out to make sure all the holes and curves on the current front clip, wheel wells and hood section all lined up nicely.
One fender in:
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Other fender in:
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hood on:
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Then I decided to jig up the gas tank hole. Before I finish this up, I'll bring out the gas tank to make sure everything is hunky dory with the final fit, but until then, I made an angle iron jig to hold the dimensions nicely.
Front to Back dimensions were set by putting angle iron against the front edge and welding to the back of the gas tank hole.
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From those front edges, I put down some welding rods to mark out where the front beam mounting holes should hit.
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Then I welded in some angle iron to hold the dimensions side-to-side
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At that point, I decided to cut down my old front clip, way shy of where my new front clip hits, so I had plenty of room for making mistakes (which I did make, you'll see):
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Next thing I did, for better or worse, was cut a few inches off the stiffeners on the inside of the body metal.
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My reasoning was that I would jig up the new front clip on the inside of the old clip, when due to the way the body expands backwards, it actually needed to be on the outside of the old metal while I fit it up.

Once I realized this, I had to cut out some of the seal channel on the old metal to allow the new clip to slide over the old clip, and I needed to trim the metal on the old clip up past the supporting stiffeners.
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In order to make the fit-up a little easier on a one-man job, I cut a couple angle iron pieces to slide into the stiffeners and act as supports as I jigged up the new clip:
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Then a LOT of up-and-down, shave a little here, a little there, up-and-down, little more shaving, until I got the new clip to match up with all my jig points, and I bolted up the fenders into place to make really sure that everything I could do was in place. After all, I hadn't yet taken a measurement Embarassed Wink

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The passenger fender looks off here, but it's because I had only bolted it in enough to make sure all my holes lined up and it had slipped down the bolts just a little. The fit is actually perfect.
Looks like a bug! Dancing Blue Bug

It sure did take me a while to get to that point, so I put a few sheet metal screws through either side to make sure I could get the two pieces to line back up again.

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Showing the alignment with the original jig front piece, and the original hole locations. Word to the wise, use something a little more durable than welding rod, they bent during fit-up but I know if all my other points are there, I should be DANG close.
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NewTechnicIan
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also posted the last post in Body/Paint. I got your link, right here If there's suggestions and comments out of either for the road ahead of me I'll share them across both posts.

That's where I got on the progress for body/front clip matchup, but my new front clip needed almost as much work as the old one did Evil or Very Mad So I needed to do some work on that while I could still get at it from all angles.

Here's the new clip
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After looking around on it for a while, I noticed a few things. You'll see there's a patch on the bottom of the washer fluid holder, and the top is definitely rotted out. There was also some rust through on the back of the washer fluid holder, so I had some work I needed to do.
First, if anyone is working on a front clip and has already removed their rear apron, that's a really nice snug fit and a nice working height to get at it from a bunch of angles:
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But enough about that, let's see what was under that patch!
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AAAHHH! Kill it with Fire! Cleaned up:
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You'll see later that I put rust converter primer over the exposed area. This was just as rotted on my old clip as on the new one. Seems like a pretty classic VW design issue, I'll need to protect this area well.

You'll also notice that the area around the washer fluid holder is rotted on two panels, the actual reservoir holder itself and the back side of the apron. I cut the rot out of the back side of the apron and welded in some new strong metal:
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Cleaned up a little bit:
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I used the same patch that had originally been used on this, but I cleaned it up and primed it underneath. This time I made sure it was a butt weld instead of the crappy cancer patch job.
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Welded, cleaned up, and holes drilled through both new pieces for plug welds:
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Plug welded:
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Evidence of penetration on the back side.... Wink
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With that cleaned up, I turned my attention to the rotten top of the clip:
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Cut that out:
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Also cut out the rotten area behind the reservoir:
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This was all an interesting repair area. There were a lot of layers of metal and in both the case of my old clip and this one, all the rust spots were in places where there were a lot of layers of metal together. While I went with it on the bottom side of the reservoir, I really didn't trust the spots at the top and the back.
So you'll see that I only used one piece to butt weld the two layers together on the backside:
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And on the top of the clip, I used the still-usable piece from my old clip, but instead of two sandwiched layers behind it, I only welded in one. I guess I don't have any pictures of the one, but here's the piece welded in:
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That's where I had to leave it this weekend, I got a terrible headache that may have been a migraine or just the hangover catching up to me...
Anyway, I Just Couldn't do the last plug welds and grind it down to be ready for putting on the car. I also have some work on the front end that might be nice to get to before I put the apron on, so I may do some of that first. Hopefully I'll be able to get out there Thursday to work on it!

Good Stuff,
Ian
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plotch
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work Ian! I like your solution to the jigging issues. Where did you get those clamps with the wing nuts?
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beetlenut
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're called panel clamps and Eastwood sells them. http://www.eastwood.com/intergrip-panel-clamps-set-of-4.html

Also check out clecos, another great holding system for welding, positioning, and riveting.
http://www.eastwood.com/intergrip-panel-clamps-set-of-4.html
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... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again.
- Words to live by right there!

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NewTechnicIan
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey thanks Plotch! If you're looking for those for way cheaper, Harbor freight has them and they've served me well. 8 bucks for 8 of them!
http://www.harborfreight.com/8-piece-butt-welding-clamps-60545.html
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NewTechnicIan
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, so I haven't updated in a while but I've been hard at work. Following up on my last post, I finally got the top of my washer fluid reservoir squared away:

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Then I moved on to cutting and attaching the front clip:

I put my clip back on the car after the repairs and hooked up my fenders and checked my fit a bunch more times but I was ready! So I took my air tool and started cutting and putting in buttweld clamps to hold things in place:

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And moved on to the other side to do the same thing:

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Checked and double checked my fit against my jig for the gas tank gap:
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This looked almost perfect. I think I said it before but it would have paid to use something less bendy than welding rod Embarassed
However the holes were within 1/8" side to side and front to back, and maybe just 1/4" low from where they were originally. I don't see it causing any big problems.

I had the two sides tacked/welded in place already but I got around to checking my gas tank for fit and it confirmed what I thought: that I had a good fit but I had moved it just a little bit in from where my original clip was, so the bolts for holding down the tank may need some finagling up front:
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It fit to my standard and I was more concerned about getting the body lines correct so long as I could get the tank to sit nicely.

So I moved on to the body lines! Working carefully and steadily I welded up the seal channel area and I think it came out pretty wizard!

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You'll notice in the last couple pictures that I took out the seal channel entirely around the hood area. I decided that it was the way better decision to go with the Mexi Beetle Hood Seal instead of trying to attach new seal channel or put up with rusty current stuff.

Link to the Hood Seals:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=821433

So that's how I decided to replace my front clip! It could have been more exact and if I had had some more skill and probably taken things a little slower it would have been even better but I'm pretty proud of it all in all. It was definitely the most nerve-wracking thing in a while when I was about to make the cut for the butt weld Shocked
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NewTechnicIan
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, next thing's next!
I originally wanted to get the body work done on the car by November 1st, but that didn't happen Crying or Very sad so I've set the date now that by Thanksgiving it WILL be done and I think that I'm finally getting to the point where that's realistic.
Man, it's getting cold up there though. We've had a couple inches of snow up around the garage sticking around more of the time than not nowadays! Winter needs to wait just a dang second!

Anyway, I was cleaning up and feeling OK about the front clip when I noticed something upsetting:

FRIGGIN ROTTEN METAL! UGH!
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This was really frustrating and I started questioning if a front clip replacement was even a good idea with the amount of extra work I needed to put in on this guy. Ah well, I was already committed so I went for it. I cut the piece out and put a new one in.
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Looked pretty good in the end, but that was a frustrating morning spent on something I didn't think I was going to have to do.

Anyway, I started looking really critically at my front end and what else I needed to do, so I could start crossing EVERY LITTLE THING off the list.
I shaved down the piece in my passenger wheel well that I kept getting pinholes on and this time no holes:
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I noticed that the seal channel around the rear of my hood/front of my windshield was pretty rotted so I welded in a new piece:
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And here was the most terrifying thing I've yet done to the bug. The dreaded seal channel. I took TX-73's advice (build here:http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=540579) when positioning the seal and cut a few notches down the area that would become my spot welds. Then using those notches as places to bend the seal, I bent it into nice position around the curves of my hood:
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The hardest thing I've yet done was weld into those tiny notches in the sure knowledge that if I burned through now, I would all but ruin this seal channel and need to start over. PROTIP: I turned the feed speed up on my welder to keep as little heat in the seal channel as possible and started welding to the car first, then guiding the bead over to the seal channel. In the end I made it but that was a heart attack of a weld session.

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Pretty proud of that. I had primered both sides before I put them together so I don't have much to worry about for rust after I get the thing painted

I also moved around to both sides on my front quarters and did a whole bunch of banging and slide hammering to get the curve of the two areas that had warped back to a little more normal look so it'll take minimal filler once I get it primed. The pictures didn't come out great but you'll have to trust me, they feel way better Wink

I welded up a few little holes and pinholes around the front bulkhead and the heater channels, too. One question I have, does anyone put anything between the bulkhead and the heater channel sheet metal to make sure not too much crap gets up in there?
Insert terrible picture here:
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After that, I moved around to the rear apron area to start getting that worked out. As it happens, the Mexi beetle hood seal also applies for a rear decklid seal!
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Rear-Decklid-Seal-Beetle-and-Superbeetle-Mexibug-p/mexidecklidseal.htm
Seems like THE PERFECT FIT for a removable rear apron, as the comments in the URL indicate, so I don't have to worry about that when I remove the apron. Also no channels to replace or fix. Love it.
Shaved the seal channels:
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Then I took my apron off and welded up the normally open areas where the fender bolt holes are and drilled holes in the newly welded area so that I could just use the fender bolts as rear apron bolts as well.

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I may have to make the holes a little wider like the fenders but I think it'll work like Gangbustahs!

I kept moving and got to the passenger rear quarter where a whole bunch of slide hammer and normal hammer and welding and a little bit of blood got the quarter curved pretty nicely. I anticipate filler of course but I'm pretty happy anyway:
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I also welded in my passenger rear body mount so that it was nicely lined up to my frame:
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After that I was pretty done for the day. I started welding some pieces on to the frame for just in case stuff later on in the build. If I ever decide to go with different seats, I'm going to weld in a few brackets that I can mount new seat rails to if I have to.

Whew! Big updates! I think with some hard work the next two weeks I'll be ready to call it quits for the winter and maybe start building the engine again!
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NewTechnicIan
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only had a few more things to do but it was a cold friggin week last week to do em!

Took out the old passenger floor pan (Sorry Plotch!) since it was the wrong year for my 73 seats.
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Mounted the new floor pan to the heater channel on my passenger side so I could line it up better,
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Dropped it onto the pan and bolted the driver side down to line it all up. Trimmed a few places to keep it all lined up on both sides
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Used sheet metal screws to hold it all down while I welded it together
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Put my seatpost and tracks in place, just tacked in this picture to keep it there before I took the body back up off the frame.
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Welded in the jacking point from on top. Drilled two 3/8" holes to plug weld through
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Tried to keep the support points on the jacking point low enough that they wouldn't interfere with the heater channels on the floor
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Welded the supports in just in case of future different seats
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Welded the front edge in
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Welded the rest in
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Then I discovered something not awesome, there were pinholes underneath my package tray that I needed to fix and I was desperately low on welding gas. Luckily I had enough to seal all the holes up. It's not pretty but underneath dynamat and undercoating we'll be fine.
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I did one last sweep around the car, but I came back to the inescapable conclusion that I was as far as a welder and a grinder would take me on this job! So after 14 months of work from first weld to last, I brought the bug down from the mountain, in time to beat the snow no less!
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And her new home in my garage. It's a bit snugger, but she's home. Feels good. Feels reeeaalll good
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vamram Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, this is possibly the most amazing thread I've ever followed here! It's a textbook for the aspiring welder at the very least! Ian - you are an artist!

Victor

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'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
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beetlenut
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, it looks like a bug again! Great job Ian. So nice to have all that welding done. I like what I'm seeing on the bug body, and on the ground outside your garage! Wink Now you get to do the fun part of making it look pretty with filler, primer and paint! I'm sure it feels kind of weird to finally be at the end of all the major body work and have your never ending to-do-list all checked off. So now it's time to start another to-do-list!
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scrapyards are for quitters
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Wetstuff wrote:
... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again.
- Words to live by right there!

My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104
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NewTechnicIan
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Victor - Thanks a lot for the kind words man, that's really high praise and it means a lot, it really does!

Beetlenut - I know I can finally get excited about winter! I'll be on the slopes in the next couple weeks. And yes, it's really weird to not have more things on the list. I feel like I'll show it to the guy I'm asking to beadblast it and he'll notice 50 things Laughing But we'll see. First on my winter to-do list is get my engine started so I can get all the pieces picked up off the shelves in my basement Laughing Thanks for the encouragement man, I'm pretty happy.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know the 1st thing about welding, but seeing as you've probably replaced/reconstructed 60% of the car, your bead blaster will probably see Franken-Bug! Laughing Unless the welds blend in bare like they were the original metal!
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'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NewTechnicIan wrote:
Victor - Thanks a lot for the kind words man, that's really high praise and it means a lot, it really does!

Beetlenut - I know I can finally get excited about winter! I'll be on the slopes in the next couple weeks. And yes, it's really weird to not have more things on the list. I feel like I'll show it to the guy I'm asking to beadblast it and he'll notice 50 things Laughing But we'll see. First on my winter to-do list is get my engine started so I can get all the pieces picked up off the shelves in my basement Laughing Thanks for the encouragement man, I'm pretty happy.


Beadblasting will be a nice way to go with the body. Is the guy going to put a coat of primer on it for you while he has it. Epoxy would be a good way to go as you can do body filler over it as long as you sand it first. Imagine you'll pick up the body work in the Spring unless you have heat in your garage.
I already have a ticket for Sugarbush and possibly Smuggs for March. New skis in the mail, and hopefully Sunday River next weekend! Woo Hoo Winter!!
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scrapyards are for quitters
---------------------------------------
Wetstuff wrote:
... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again.
- Words to live by right there!

My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104
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plotch
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Joined: December 22, 2004
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Location: jeffersonville, vermont
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice! I'd be willing to help but thanks for not asking. Been kind of busy. Ask if you need any parts. Cheap really cheap.
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NewTechnicIan
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Joined: May 28, 2013
Posts: 367
Location: Burlington, VT
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

beetlenut wrote:
Beadblasting will be a nice way to go with the body. Is the guy going to put a coat of primer on it for you while he has it. Epoxy would be a good way to go as you can do body filler over it as long as you sand it first. Imagine you'll pick up the body work in the Spring unless you have heat in your garage.
I already have a ticket for Sugarbush and possibly Smuggs for March. New skis in the mail, and hopefully Sunday River next weekend! Woo Hoo Winter!!

SNOW!!! I'll be going out there this weekend, I'm Pumped! Dancing Currently it's the plan to have it blasted then put in epoxy for me to filler at my leisure. I got a recommendation for a guy who can do all that in his shop and who seems like he may do alright for me on price, but you're right, this will most likely go by the wayside until spring unless I can give this guy a call and get a trailer arranged to get it all out to him shortly.

One thing I noticed recently was that one of my front fenders is actually pretty rotten under the paint (read: Swiss cheese) and since I want to get everything blasted and primed at the same time with the same stuff (to the extent possible), that's kinda what's holding me up right now. I know I can do bodywork at this point but the curve it's on is pretty complex and this is right on the face of the car. Seems tough to make it pretty and it's cold outside Wink
Rotten Fella:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So if anyone has a driver's front fender laying around for a 68-73 standard beetle that wouldn't be too much work or money, you might find a guy who'd be interested! Very Happy

Plotch wrote:
Nice! I'd be willing to help but thanks for not asking. Been kind of busy. Ask if you need any parts. Cheap really cheap.

Thanks Plotch, yeah I'm doing OK for now unless you have a driver's front fender or possibly engine tin. I'll PM you but I still need to do a thorough inventory of what tin I actually have Cool .
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My 1679 Engine build.
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vamram Premium Member
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Location: NOVA
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ian - check out dutchboy's ads:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php?username=dutchboyvw%40yahoo.com

I bought a passenger-side front fender from him for my '72 Super about 5 weeks ago. It was in very good condition - no holes at all, straight - and sold for an even better price. He's got quite a few ads, you'll have to dig thru, but at the time he had multiple fenders advertised.

BTW - winter SUCKS. Cold-ass rain, snow, fogged up windows, gooey Fluid Film all over the place.

Victor
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Give peace a chance - Stop Russian-Soviet Aggression!!

'74 Super 9/16 - present, in refurb process.
'73 Super - 6/18 - Present - Daily Driver!
'75 Super Le Grande...waiting it's turn in line behind '74.
Click to view image
Save the Supers!!
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a.wilson
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NewTechnicIan wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

One of those new German Kaferland pans? Looks great!
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NewTechnicIan
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Location: Burlington, VT
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Victor, haha winter sucks if you treat it as an obstacle to doing things rather than a thing to do in and of itself, but that's way easier in Vermont than most places! I'll have to check out those ads, thanks for the recommendations!

A.Wilson, Yeah! I've been meaning to write up a quick review for the thing since I now have both the cheapo Brazil pan and the slick German pan on my frame, so here it is!

I was not so proficient a welder as I am now when I installed my Cheapo Brazil Driver's side pan, but having done a few touchup welds on it recently right after the Kaferland pan, I can tell you right now that the difference in gauge of metal shows like night and day! Welding on my driver's side felt like welding to tinfoil where welding to the passenger felt like welding to something real that I didn't have to baby. Heat affected zones were smaller, too.
Standing on the pan after it was welded in felt uber-solid, unlike the Cheap side that oil-cans on me when I don't have it bolted to the body Crying or Very sad .
One thing that was a little unfortunate was that I needed to weld in my own seat rails and post, so it was more labor intensive there, but my seat now slides well. I did use my original seat post out of my passenger side, and you'll need one, but that thing was pretty solid and I'd say better than the cheap repro one on my driver's pan.
All in all, I'm glad I paid the extra for the pan, but I'm not too worried about getting a driver's side and replacing my other pan. For an avid 70's beetle fan doing a Big Boy Restoration, though, the choice is clear. I'm just happy that the strong one's the passenger side so my guests will be impressed with how solid it is and no one but the Samba will be the wiser Laughing
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My 1679 Engine build.
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mikec4193
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Joined: July 15, 2014
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Location: Mechanicville NY (Upstate)
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey New Technician

I am really new to the whole VW Beetle stuff but not to the greater NorthEast New England rust we have to deal with with most all of our vintage vehicles...

Seeing those pictures looks so familiar to me being from the upstate NY area of the country. You certainly have polished this one up rather well. I am hoping to start one similar shortly...

I will be following along with your build...

Thanks for sharing the journey

MikeC
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slagathor
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NewTechnicIan wrote:
beetlenut wrote:
Beadblasting will be a nice way to go with the body. Is the guy going to put a coat of primer on it for you while he has it. Epoxy would be a good way to go as you can do body filler over it as long as you sand it first. Imagine you'll pick up the body work in the Spring unless you have heat in your garage.
I already have a ticket for Sugarbush and possibly Smuggs for March. New skis in the mail, and hopefully Sunday River next weekend! Woo Hoo Winter!!

SNOW!!! I'll be going out there this weekend, I'm Pumped! Dancing Currently it's the plan to have it blasted then put in epoxy for me to filler at my leisure. I got a recommendation for a guy who can do all that in his shop and who seems like he may do alright for me on price, but you're right, this will most likely go by the wayside until spring unless I can give this guy a call and get a trailer arranged to get it all out to him shortly.

One thing I noticed recently was that one of my front fenders is actually pretty rotten under the paint (read: Swiss cheese) and since I want to get everything blasted and primed at the same time with the same stuff (to the extent possible), that's kinda what's holding me up right now. I know I can do bodywork at this point but the curve it's on is pretty complex and this is right on the face of the car. Seems tough to make it pretty and it's cold outside Wink
Rotten Fella:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So if anyone has a driver's front fender laying around for a 68-73 standard beetle that wouldn't be too much work or money, you might find a guy who'd be interested! Very Happy

Plotch wrote:
Nice! I'd be willing to help but thanks for not asking. Been kind of busy. Ask if you need any parts. Cheap really cheap.

Thanks Plotch, yeah I'm doing OK for now unless you have a driver's front fender or possibly engine tin. I'll PM you but I still need to do a thorough inventory of what tin I actually have Cool .



damn i wish i would have held on to mine for another 6 months longer, i would have just asked you to pay shipping and i would have sent them out to you and they were in perfect condition.

i needed 1 rear fender for my 73 standard. i found a guy on craigslist and he was selling a complete set of 73 fenders for 50 dollars. he wouldnt split them up so i bought the whole set, from and rears. i used the one i needed and posted the rest on craigslist and the samba...for a year. no buyers. i live in a small studio with no space, and those things take up space. so i took them to a scrap yard and got back enough to cover buying the whole set.
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