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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:52 am Post subject: Is 30 MPG really possible in a Bus? |
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Is 30 MPG really possible in a Bus?. Before I pull the trigger on the heads and carb manifold set-up I would like to figure out if there is anything to this milage thread I have been following. "Eaallred" is posting here Milage Master Motor that he has gotten over 30 MPGS in a bus with his single port 1600 running some kind of speed RPM governor set to 4000 RPM.
Current project status is I have everything to do the short block just need the heads and carbs etc... Any Suggestions? _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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Lionhart94010 Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2005 Posts: 1417 Location: SF Bay Area / Silicon Valley / So Cal
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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IMO, before you assemble your engine, you should double check your mains for fretting, in the picture of your line bore, it looks like there is fretting where the bearing saddles bolt together, if so your case is junk and a wast of time and money if used, it will just destroy good parts in short order... on a good case where the bearing saddles meet the metal is as flat and smooth as all the other sealing surfaces.
If cc's are added, one needs better exhaust and carburration or all the bigger engine will do is have close to the same torque and HP, however, the torque will come in sooner on the rpm range... (i.e. sort of a wast of money) Also good to remember that unless a super squishy pistons combo is used, any extra HP will only be useful in 30 second burst or it will exceed the T1 heads designed to shed 40-50 HP worth of heat on a continuous basis... so it would not allow cruising at 75mph on a hot day or climbing a 6% grade at 50-60mph... _________________ Current VWs 71 T2 Westy SO-72/6(Miami), 71 Crew Cab, 2015 GSW TDI
Other owned VW’s 59, 68 1500s, 69 & 71 Bug’s; 72 & 73 S-Bug’s; 67 Westy, 67 Deluxe, Other 71 DC, 72 KG GT that now lives in Australia, 12 JSW TDI, 2015 GSW TDI, 2023 Tiguan
VW technical information sights
thesamba - www.ratwell.com - www.shoptalkforums.com/ - www.vw-resource.com - http://www.type2.com/
http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/ - www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles.htm |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the reply, Yeah, Sure hope the case is good as I have had all the work already done. I thought is looked pretty good and so did the shop that did the work. Actually I built one once out of a H Case that was so bad it would not even turn over once the case was torqued. The solution proved to be to loosen and re-torque them until it was ok. That thing is still running years later!
But yeah, "Lionhart94010" I have been able to get quite a bit of data on how the 74mm stroke X 88mm bore engine is with the one I built last year under my 1800 link below. They sure make a nice power plant. We just got back driving it on a 900 mile 4 day camping trip up and around Mt. St. Helens. It's nice driving a bus with power to pass when you need it. I tend to drive it at about 65 mph when on open road. It will handle 70 ok too without overheating but if it's over 90' F outside air temp it will get a little hotter if I push it over 65 mph. But it pulls strong to 80mph. There was a nice look at the Farrari 660 HP Engine and it's pistons on "How it's Made: Dream Cars" last night. Look pretty much like the Squish pistons. This Farrari Video has a peek at the Farrari Heads and Pistons at 3:30 minutes into it.
But the engine I am building now is the Milage engine. and it just happens that I got a good deal on the 74mm crank so have decided to build a similar engine only with a mild cam for milage.
I would love those Super Squish Pistons sound really neat! Wonder if there worth it?
_________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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Lionhart94010 Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2005 Posts: 1417 Location: SF Bay Area / Silicon Valley / So Cal
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Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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They are wort it, but too many are afraid to make the leap of faith, I have read hundreds of post concerning the ACN Super Squishy pistons, no one that actually owns them and flowed John's build recomendations seems to regret their purchase, all seem rave about how well thire engines run!
http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=138918&hilit=Super+Squishy
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=499502&start=0
http://ultimateaircooled.com/engines/2900-what-ever-happened-super-squish-pistons.html _________________ Current VWs 71 T2 Westy SO-72/6(Miami), 71 Crew Cab, 2015 GSW TDI
Other owned VW’s 59, 68 1500s, 69 & 71 Bug’s; 72 & 73 S-Bug’s; 67 Westy, 67 Deluxe, Other 71 DC, 72 KG GT that now lives in Australia, 12 JSW TDI, 2015 GSW TDI, 2023 Tiguan
VW technical information sights
thesamba - www.ratwell.com - www.shoptalkforums.com/ - www.vw-resource.com - http://www.type2.com/
http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/ - www.aircooled.net/gnrlsite/resource/articles.htm |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:53 pm Post subject: Plastigauge |
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Having to back-up a bit on this project with the case:
The lifter bores seem to be a little loose. I can put a piece of scotch tape on the lifters (which do measure stock dia) and still get them in and out! The scotch tape is .002" thick.
So I called Rocky Jennings http://www.rockyjennings.com/ about installing lifter bores and he is telling me that I need to check the case over better first! He want's me to try the crank in it with it torqued to see that there is no binding with the mains and crank installed with just oil on them.
Also he says he uses a .0015" feeler gauge on the center (it should not be removable once torqued) between case haves where they meet around the large case studs. He want's to make sure the case halves are together there when torqued without the crank.
I am going to try Plastigauge! Anyone use it to check this? Any advice?
This Photo was taken before the line-bore.
_________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26297 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: Plastigauge |
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Danwvw wrote: |
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Also he says he uses a .0015" feeler gauge on the center (it should not be removable once torqued) |
That is not unlike the advice I often give - put the case together empty, torque the 6 big nuts to spec, then stick a flashlight in the flywheel end aimed at the center saddle and look in from the pulley end: if there is an air gap where the block halves meet at that saddle, consider the case warped and not good to use. |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Ok I did the PlastiGauge test and here are some photos. It looks like my worst squeeze is the top of the center main journal which tested just over .0015" the others are squeezed out to .0015" or less.
Center Main (showing the top side at the bottom):
Center Cam Journals came together nicely:
Number 1 Main:
_________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!
Last edited by Danwvw on Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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did you dress all the flat surfaces with a mill file first? No filing, just run it around to remove any burrs. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks "SGKent" for the info. What I did was used a knife blade then a wire brush on it. I am feeling better about the case now as it fits together really well. Going to send it off to "RockyJennings" for bronze lifter bores when the CB-Performance Ultra-Lite 28mm lifters arrive.
#3 Main Journals PlastiGauge results:
_________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:47 pm Post subject: Main Bearing OD & Fit! |
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Ok here is one for the experts! Center Main and I suppose the other's too!
With the Main Bearings and the Crank installed the case is not coming together enough to squeeze the Plastigauge out much at all. Is that how it should be? Do I need to trim the split center main bearing pieces some and re-check it? How much room for crush is correct?
Thanks, Dan _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:53 am Post subject: |
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I put each bearing in with no crank. I then use an xacto knife or fine pin to make a really light scribe along the part line. Then when I drop the crank in it is easy to see if the bearings are seated properly because it is really hard to do that with the crank in and just a little off and you can miss the dowel. Missing the dowel can cause what you describe, so can a tight align bore. So, was the case align bored and how freely does the crank spin after you have torqued the six main bolts? IMHO the halves should be about the same when the 6 bolts are torqued and the crank should turn because the bearings will crush. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:09 am Post subject: |
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I tried the crank in it yesterday before sending the case off to "Rocky Jennings Enterprises" to have the lifter bores done. I did not use the dowels for the test but with the crank in and torqued the crank did spin freely but the thing that I noticed is that the little piece of Plastigauge that had not been crushed in the photo above was still just barely crushed. Yes it was align bored and I think it is just the align-bore is a bit of a tight one. I will play around with it when it comes back and see if it needs further attention. Any Idea how I would adjust the bearings? I don't see a way to do anything with the the main bearings except the center main split bearings could be sanded down on their ends or something. _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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Mr.Duncan Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2012 Posts: 3542 Location: Houston, TX
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:22 am Post subject: |
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Sometimes, RARELY when the case doesn't close that tight around a bearing, I've found that the dowel pin HOLE in the BEARING was drilled too shallow. so the dowel pin barely hits it.
Solved by lightly drilling it a little deeper (the bearing)
Like I said, I've only come across this a few times.
But having that issue with your dowel pins removed? (in your case?)
Maybe a tight align bore?
-TexasAirCooled
http://texasaircooled.com/ _________________ (Owner) www.vintagecarleds.com
Red 1971 Squareback Thread
Red 1966 Beetle Thread
---------------------------------------------------
1971 Green Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Ghia (sold)
1971 Blue Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Java Green Std Beetle (sold)
1971 Red Squareback (sold)
1966 Red Beetle |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:34 am Post subject: |
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Maybe it's supposed to be that way so the bearings do crush for a tight fit? Probably could go back 5000 miles later and re-torque the case? _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26740 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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Main bearing press fit:
#1 and 3, should be .001-.002 larger than bore
#3 should be .003-.005
the center main get WAY more crush because it is steel, and mag expanding 2x faster with heat it needs to still have some press at boiling temp.
#4....well nobody really cares about #4
Anyway, pi times crush, divide by two, would give "gap", assuming things aren't flexible. They are, so subtract one. Result: the center main should hold the case apart .003-.007 Only people who pay attention notice this.
Thanks for paying attention. No don't "Fix" it!! unless it has more crush than spec. I have run into that once with a type4, it had .007 crush |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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Wow that makes me feel a lot better about it! Just for fun when I get the case back I will Plastigauge between the case halves for all of the main bearings to see what it's doing,
Thanks "modok" for this useful info. _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 1:09 pm Post subject: Webcam 118 Type 1 |
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It's been a long wait but the New Webcam 118 just arrived. On the last engine the new cam for it had a pretty sharp edge on the lobes but this one looks nicer. Do I need to grind the edges of the lobes a little on this one? No mention of doing so in the instructions.
Photos:
_________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 10:24 pm Post subject: Setting Cam Advance Retard for Best Millage? |
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Ok so trying to move forward on this project but keep having problems, Checked the Deck height but lost one of my cylinders in the process 88mm Slip-in Bottom Machine in top Piston & Cylinders also had quite a time chamfering the cam Cam Lobe Chamfering? it's nice to do but next time I think I will skip it. Tonight I checked the Valve timing on the Webcam 118 cam. The results in the photo show 1st with 4' Advance then 2nd is Zero Advance. The cam numbers are close to the card on the intake numbers but the exhaust are a little short. Also the cam has a little more lift on the intake valves.
Now I need to figure out where to run it. I want good millage! Any Ideas on what to do I was thinking 2' Retard!
_________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26740 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:10 am Post subject: |
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I'd go with the 2 degree advance(your zero washers). Those numbers are matching up pretty well for checking at the valve! |
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