Broken retainers anyone chrome moly

[jtstair]

just wondering I happened to purchase a set from a company that I am holding off on naming. dual springs stock valves on a 1.8 type 4 Porsche 914 engine. engine was completely gone thru purchasing all the parts thru the same company. mild cam 495 lift, stay with the stock bore hypereutectic pistons. heads had new guides and cut out for the dual springs. stayed with the stock valves. engine only had 28000 miles on it and everything was well taken care of. standard bearings etc. anyway broke the cam in with just the outer springs. then installed the inners set the lash and took it for a ride. never going over 4500 went thru town and everything was sounding and running great. was really happy, came to a stop took off short shifted into second getting ready to turn on to my street and bam. hit the key and coasted down to the house. pulled the valve covers to find that a retainer had split into half, dropping the valve, busting the piston, bending the rod, bending the crank, destroying the head, took out the piston on the other side and the skirt off number 3. plus breaking the exhaust valve rocker arm. hope the pictures go thru, so that you can see the nice clean break. I get ahold of the company and they want me to sent them the head and retainer, so I did. after looking them we came to a agreement on the crankshaft, rod and pistons along with bearing etc but the head we didn't. they wanted to fix the head and I didn't really want them to. finally I told them to go ahead and fix my head, after a few weeks. now they don't want to do the original deal and say that it is not there fault. I have heard every excuse in the book. it has been four months of this with them and all I would like is to have my engine back together. they are now telling me that you can never put dual springs on stock valves and that the valve stretched and broke. with my lift spring pressure is right at 300 and 175 at 1.550. if you look at the head you will see that the guide is perfect at the top. that tells me that if the valve had broke close to the top and jumped around enough to split a retainer in half that the guide would be ripped apart. there is nothing to split that retainer in half under the valve cover but if it had would there not be some marks on it where it was grabbed etc to put that kind of pressure on it? there are no marks. they don't want to admit that their part could have had a defect. I am just curious if anyone out there has had any problems like this. and what they think. thanks tim I was informed by them today that I didn't even have a Porsche 914 engine lol. these guys are suppose to be in the business. for you guys so that you will know. the block number is ec038403 and the head number is 021 101 371s. if my pictures don't show please go check them out in my gallery.

[raygreenwood]

Interesting. Just a few things....some are unrelated. Im not sure I would have had dual springs on a cam that mild either.....but I dont think thats the main issue.

What was the material on the retainer. ...and was it new?

Also....were the keepers filed to prevent contact of their edges? If I had to guess....I would say the keepers/collets pulled through the retainer and split the retainer. If you are usong dual springs the retainer must be better than stock. Ray

[Bleyseng]

Totally agree with Ray. Why the dual springs with a stock retainer? If you wanted stiffer springs just use the hydrolifter valve springs.
The EC engine was used in 914's and 412's...
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles

[Jacks]

I question whether any company would warranty even STOCK motor parts on an engine that they did not build, after "only 28,000 miles", much less hi performance/modified parts. I wonder what the factory warranty was on a brand new 914? Anybody know?
_________________
Jack Staggs
Actual name

[jtstair]

the retainers were brand new along with locks and springs. the retainers were suppose to be chrome moly. My first thought was that they pulled thru but there are no markings that would indicate that. even if it had pulled thru it would have had to be because of a defective retainer. I purchased everything from the same company and I thought that the dual springs were a little much and had considered just using the outside springs. you only need so much spring pressure anymore is just wear and tear. I did break the engine in with just the outside springs. I went ahead and put the inner ones on because of after looking at there spring pressure it was not that much more than stock, they just used two springs to do it. I was told today that it happened because the stock valve was not strong enough and stretched it and it broke. I would love to know exactly what the tensile strength of the stock valves. I know that what they sell is not a true stainless steel valve. don't get me wrong performance wise they will flow more but stock vw valves are not junk. I don't care for the sodium filled valve but I understand that it helps with the cooling. I am getting tired of dealing with them. they have made me deals and then back out. I have made them what I feel like are more then fair deals. I told them that if they would give me a head then I would buy a head that way I would have a match set. the heads that they have are not as good as the heads that I have. they are just new, smaller valves, worse combustion chamber etc. sorry this post is suppose to be about the retainer not how companys treat people when they sell you a defective part. we all know that it never happens, just ask gm

[jtstair]

[quote="Jacks"]I question whether any company would warranty even STOCK motor parts on an engine that they did not build, after "only 28,000 miles", much less hi performance/modified parts. I wonder what the factory warranty was on a brand new 914? Anybody know?[/quote


so what you are saying is that you are okay with buying a part expecting it to be a quality part and it breaks that is okay? we are not talking used parts here. a company would not stay in business selling parts that are sub standard. autozone and oreillys would go out of business because who wants to buy a part and take a chance on it. we sell spring retainers they are the best you can buy but we don't guaranty them. had six people last week that claimed they broke, would you buy them. if you don't want to warranty a part then don't sell it. if you only want to sell complete engines then that is what you do. in case you did not read the post and understand the part was brand new on a engine that had just be rebuilt with all new parts. well other than crank and rods, case, bare heads and the stock valves since they were in great shape. and this is for someone else they were not stock retainers on dual springs. I used the springs and retainers that the company recommend for the cam. I did not agree with the springs but the spring pressure is not that much more than stock about 35 pounds open and less on the seat.

[raygreenwood]

[jtstair]

ray let me see if I can answer all your questions. to start with it was the intake valve, there was no coil bind that was checked during the build and rechecked after the incident. I am sorry that I was somewhat confusing on my post. the engine only had 28000 when I rebuilt the engine, and was in great shape, crankshaft went back standard etc. did put new guides in the heads. what happened was the retainer broke and dropped the intake valve down into the cylinder while it was running. happened at around 4000 rpm. I had hypereutectic pistons that after this I don't care for but, when the valve dropped into the cylinder the piston came up and hit the valve busting the piston, bending the rod and the crankshaft. the exhaust rocker arm was busted I figure because the piston came up and the intake valve that is now down in the cylinder in two pices got wedged in between the piston and the exhaust valve causing it to push up on the exhaust valve breaking the rocker arm. as far as the valve it was the stock Porsche 914 1974 intake valve. I am not sure what the valve was I know you motioned trw but the tops were ground when they ground the valve so I cant see a stamp on the end. I do know that they valves where harder than any stock type 1 valve I have. I am not sure if they chrome plated valves but the stems are extremely shinny. I hope that helps I will try to answer any questions that I can.

[raygreenwood]

Yep....that, helps.
So neither inner or outer springs had coil bind...and that means coil bind with a safety margin right?
Typical procedures are springs are compressed at max cam lift....and the coils, must have no contact and have a .060" safety margin of space between primary coils to prevent coil contact after heat expansion and during oscillation.

The mfgs marks on the valves are not on the actual tip but usually on the sides....right above the collet/keeper grooves. But what you are describing is a classic good quality stock valve.
typically the stock type 4 valves...and in reality most original stock type 1 valves ahould be tjis way too......have chromed stems, stellite tips and are usually stainless heads. Two piece valve.
If they were original...its possible that you could have had some of the original stretchy valves...but I thought all of that was worked out before 1974.

You could have broken the rocker arm, from the valve to piston, contact....but I also doubt that a little.
If the valve went all the way in past the retainers...and was pushed back up the same hole fo hit the rocker arm....the retainer would have been loose and out of alignment at this time along with the springs.
If the valve being pushed up by the piston could break the rocker arm....it, could break the retainer as well. Its possible you are on the right track.....and that the returning valve broke the rocker arm and the retainer as it crammed the whole pile of loose junk together under the rocker arm.

I think you can learn the sequence or events from inspecting the valve or whats left of it.

The middle years valves were awesome quality.....but this is also one of the reasons I never reuse valves. Too manu unknowns. If im pulling them out and recutting them....im replacing them. Its just not that much money. Ray