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Adjusting the parking brake
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Welldon82
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:02 am    Post subject: Re: Adjusting the parking brake Reply with quote

sanchius wrote:
My Syncro's parking brake was nearing the end of its travel and needed to be tightened. But, underneath the car, the 10mm adjustment nut was frozen on the steel rod that is attached to the parking brake handle, so I put off fixing it until it warmed up.

Eventually it got so loose that one of the cables to the rear brake detached from the cable connection on the rod, rendering the parking brake inoperable, so it was time to really fix it. Plus, it was a warm day.

Towards the aft end of the rod, just forward of the adjustment threads, there is a flatten portion of the rod that can be held with vise-grips to keep the rod from twisting. The rod is flexible and can be easily bent down, so once the cables are detached (easy), accessibility isn't a problem.

I hit the frozen nut with penetrating fluid and ran a die (M7x1.0) up the adjustment thread to the frozen adjustment nut to clean the accessible threads.

However, the nut still wouldn't turn and I didn't want to tweak the rod, so I went to plan B, heat.

I heated the nut up to near red with a map/propane torch and slowly turned the nut off. Once it reached the cleaned threads, the nut turned easily.

Finally, I ran the die up/down the entire length, reattached the cables to the connector, zip-tied the cables ends to the connector and ran a new nyloc adjustment nut to the proper position.

It works perfectly now.


having the same problem as well with that stuck nut. However, the rod is definitely bent after using various methods to try and get the nut unstuck (vice grips, nut splitter, punching it, etc).

Being BRAND NEW at any and all mechanical work, my simple question is this:

With a slightly bent rod, is it junk and better off replaced

or

will it still work ok as is?

The rod is bent towards the rear, after the nut...probably about 15 degrees.
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1vw4x4
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteelB12 wrote:
So what happens when that parking brake rod breaks?? Anyone sell a replacement or can suggest a substitute??


NOt junk... you weld on a piece of all thread.... Why waste a good part?
I just did this yesterday....


Last edited by 1vw4x4 on Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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1vw4x4
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Adjusting the parking brake Reply with quote

You hit the nail on the head! I would like to add, that many people mess
up the installation of the rear brakes, then some how they think that
adjusting the E-brake cable will fix the problem. Start by looking over
the rear brake installation. Compare every single part to the picture
in the Bentley. THis will fix most E-brake adjustments issues.


turbotransporter wrote:
Your situation may be unique BUT I have found that adjustments to the parking brake lever "travel" begins by adjusting the brake shoes (outward towards the drums) and once the shoes are correctly adjusted, I have rarely if ever needed to adjust the position of nut on the threaded rod. (Assuming your shoes, drums and both parking brake cables are within spec's)

Again, your actual situation may be unique and perhaps something I've never experianced.

Another interesting Vanagon rear brake conundrum... The last 4 or 5 Vanagon I've worked on ALL had the rear brake adjusters reversed. They are L and R specific and if they are installed incorrectly, the shoes will move away from the drums when the "automatic" adjustment feature is activated, not closer as VW intended. Sad

Symptoms of this are long foot pedal travel before the brakes engage AND more than 3 or 4 clicks to firmly engage the parking brake. (This also assumes that all components are within spec’s.)

I had a 91 Westy with these symptoms in my shop yesterday. The rear brake system had been completely rebuilt by a very reputable VW shop 20K miles ago BUT the adjusters were installed backwards. The owner was blown away by his van's "new" brakes. Dancing

FYI: Only the LEFT adjuster is marked with a very small "L" so it's easy to miss unless you know to look for it (under all the dust and grime Smile ). Whenever I work the rear brakes of a Vanagon, I paint a large bright orange "L" on both sides of the LEFT adjuster so it might be more noticeable.

I sincerely hope your parking brake issues have been resolved to your satifaction.
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your parking brake rod does break they are available new.
http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_2076_643/front_e-brake_cable.html


Last edited by syncrodoka on Wed Nov 19, 2014 3:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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1vw4x4
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Adjusting the parking brake Reply with quote

That "L" you are referencing is for left! BUT not for the left hand side.
It means LEFT HAND THREADS! I have had this problem several time
where people think its left side.
The left hand threads goes on the passenger side of the vehicle typically
referred to as the right side...





turbotransporter wrote:
sanchius wrote:
My Syncro's parking brake was nearing the end of its travel and needed to be tightened. But, underneath the car, the 10mm adjustment nut was frozen on the steel rod that is attached to the parking brake handle, so I put off fixing it until it warmed up.

Eventually it got so loose that one of the cables to the rear brake detached from the cable connection on the rod, rendering the parking brake inoperable, so it was time to really fix it. Plus, it was a warm day.

Towards the aft end of the rod, just forward of the adjustment threads, there is a flatten portion of the rod that can be held with vise-grips to keep the rod from twisting. The rod is flexible and can be easily bent down, so once the cables are detached (easy), accessibility isn't a problem.

I hit the frozen nut with penetrating fluid and ran a die (M7x1.0) up the adjustment thread to the frozen adjustment nut to clean the accessible threads.

However, the nut still wouldn't turn and I didn't want to tweak the rod, so I went to plan B, heat.

I heated the nut up to near red with a map/propane torch and slowly turned the nut off. Once it reached the cleaned threads, the nut turned easily.

Finally, I ran the die up/down the entire length, reattached the cables to the connector, zip-tied the cables ends to the connector and ran a new nyloc adjustment nut to the proper position.

It works perfectly now.


Your situation may be unique BUT I have found that adjustments to the parking brake lever "travel" begins by adjusting the brake shoes (outward towards the drums) and once the shoes are correctly adjusted, I have rarely if ever needed to adjust the position of nut on the threaded rod. (Assuming your shoes, drums and both parking brake cables are within spec's)

Again, your actual situation may be unique and perhaps something I've never experianced.

Another interesting Vanagon rear brake conundrum... The last 4 or 5 Vanagon I've worked on ALL had the rear brake adjusters reversed. They are L and R specific and if they are installed incorrectly, the shoes will move away from the drums when the "automatic" adjustment feature is activated, not closer as VW intended. Sad

Symptoms of this are long foot pedal travel before the brakes engage AND more than 3 or 4 clicks to firmly engage the parking brake. (This also assumes that all components are within spec’s.)

I had a 91 Westy with these symptoms in my shop yesterday. The rear brake system had been completely rebuilt by a very reputable VW shop 20K miles ago BUT the adjusters were installed backwards. The owner was blown away by his van's "new" brakes. Dancing

FYI: Only the LEFT adjuster is marked with a very small "L" so it's easy to miss unless you know to look for it (under all the dust and grime Smile ). Whenever I work the rear brakes of a Vanagon, I paint a large bright orange "L" on both sides of the LEFT adjuster so it might be more noticeable.

I sincerely hope your parking brake issues have been resolved to your satifaction.
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turbotransporter
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Adjusting the parking brake Reply with quote

Yes, you are correct. Sorry for the misinformation. The Bentley clearly note the correct position on page 46.6 : Left hand threaded rod on Right side.
I need to remember to forget what I thought I knew.


1vw4x4 wrote:
That "L" you are referencing is for left! BUT not for the left hand side.
It means LEFT HAND THREADS! I have had this problem several time
where people think its left side.
The left hand threads goes on the passenger side of the vehicle typically
referred to as the right side...





turbotransporter wrote:
sanchius wrote:
My Syncro's parking brake was nearing the end of its travel and needed to be tightened. But, underneath the car, the 10mm adjustment nut was frozen on the steel rod that is attached to the parking brake handle, so I put off fixing it until it warmed up.

Eventually it got so loose that one of the cables to the rear brake detached from the cable connection on the rod, rendering the parking brake inoperable, so it was time to really fix it. Plus, it was a warm day.

Towards the aft end of the rod, just forward of the adjustment threads, there is a flatten portion of the rod that can be held with vise-grips to keep the rod from twisting. The rod is flexible and can be easily bent down, so once the cables are detached (easy), accessibility isn't a problem.

I hit the frozen nut with penetrating fluid and ran a die (M7x1.0) up the adjustment thread to the frozen adjustment nut to clean the accessible threads.

However, the nut still wouldn't turn and I didn't want to tweak the rod, so I went to plan B, heat.

I heated the nut up to near red with a map/propane torch and slowly turned the nut off. Once it reached the cleaned threads, the nut turned easily.

Finally, I ran the die up/down the entire length, reattached the cables to the connector, zip-tied the cables ends to the connector and ran a new nyloc adjustment nut to the proper position.

It works perfectly now.


Your situation may be unique BUT I have found that adjustments to the parking brake lever "travel" begins by adjusting the brake shoes (outward towards the drums) and once the shoes are correctly adjusted, I have rarely if ever needed to adjust the position of nut on the threaded rod. (Assuming your shoes, drums and both parking brake cables are within spec's)

Again, your actual situation may be unique and perhaps something I've never experianced.

Another interesting Vanagon rear brake conundrum... The last 4 or 5 Vanagon I've worked on ALL had the rear brake adjusters reversed. They are L and R specific and if they are installed incorrectly, the shoes will move away from the drums when the "automatic" adjustment feature is activated, not closer as VW intended. Sad

Symptoms of this are long foot pedal travel before the brakes engage AND more than 3 or 4 clicks to firmly engage the parking brake. (This also assumes that all components are within spec’s.)

I had a 91 Westy with these symptoms in my shop yesterday. The rear brake system had been completely rebuilt by a very reputable VW shop 20K miles ago BUT the adjusters were installed backwards. The owner was blown away by his van's "new" brakes. Dancing

FYI: Only the LEFT adjuster is marked with a very small "L" so it's easy to miss unless you know to look for it (under all the dust and grime Smile ). Whenever I work the rear brakes of a Vanagon, I paint a large bright orange "L" on both sides of the LEFT adjuster so it might be more noticeable.

I sincerely hope your parking brake issues have been resolved to your satifaction.
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shagginwagon83
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Adjusting the parking brake Reply with quote

turbotransporter wrote:


Your situation may be unique BUT I have found that adjustments to the parking brake lever "travel" begins by adjusting the brake shoes (outward towards the drums) and once the shoes are correctly adjusted, I have rarely if ever needed to adjust the position of nut on the threaded rod. (Assuming your shoes, drums and both parking brake cables are within spec's)

Again, your actual situation may be unique and perhaps something I've never experianced.

Another interesting Vanagon rear brake conundrum... The last 4 or 5 Vanagon I've worked on ALL had the rear brake adjusters reversed. They are L and R specific and if they are installed incorrectly, the shoes will move away from the drums when the "automatic" adjustment feature is activated, not closer as VW intended. Sad

Symptoms of this are long foot pedal travel before the brakes engage AND more than 3 or 4 clicks to firmly engage the parking brake. (This also assumes that all components are within spec’s.)

I had a 91 Westy with these symptoms in my shop yesterday. The rear brake system had been completely rebuilt by a very reputable VW shop 20K miles ago BUT the adjusters were installed backwards. The owner was blown away by his van's "new" brakes. Dancing

FYI: Only the LEFT adjuster is marked with a very small "L" so it's easy to miss unless you know to look for it (under all the dust and grime Smile ). Whenever I work the rear brakes of a Vanagon, I paint a large bright orange "L" on both sides of the LEFT adjuster so it might be more noticeable.

I sincerely hope your parking brake issues have been resolved to your satifaction.


I have the 3-4 click dealio going on. I'll have to take a look at my rear brakes and see what's going on. I feel like my emergency brake is not reliable!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Adjusting the parking brake Reply with quote

My first (of many) Vanagon wrenching mistakes was over-adjusting the hand-brake cable. It was not holding well and seeing the cable and adjusting nut I figured that was all there was too it. I tightened it up all manly like and off I went. I'm not sure exactly what happened but about 60 miles down the road it ended up busting up the rear adjuster and trashed the drum in the process. Maybe there were already other issues with the rear brakes and that was the final straw. Who knows. However, had I read up a little and checked my rear brake adjustment first I probably would not have needed to adjust the cable at all.

On the bright side, my brand new AAA membership paid for itself that day.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: Adjusting the parking brake Reply with quote

Sorry to dig up another old thread but I wanted to add to the conversation.

The 'Work Sequence' listed by the Bentley manual for the Vanagon is as follows:

1. release parking brake

2. tighten adjusting nut (self-locking) until there is no noticeable play at brake components
- check by pulling slightly on brake cable housings

3. apply and release parking brake several times

4. check proper adjustment of parking brake:
- rear wheels can not be turned by hand when brake lever is pulled 2-4 notches
- rear wheels can not be turned by hand wbe parking brake is released
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:36 am    Post subject: Re: Adjusting the parking brake Reply with quote

I am in the process of replacing the grommet where the rear right bake cable goes through frame - part #251-609-719B. GoWesty calls it the Hand Brake Cable Stop.

So I'm reading threads on thesamba to determine how to adjust brake cables properly afterwards. I think eaders may have made a typo - last step in bentley

-rear wheels must rotate freely when parking brake is released
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: Adjusting the parking brake Reply with quote

would an incorrectly adjusted parking brake with too much tension when disengaged affect the ability of the adjusters to automatically adjust the rear shoes?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: Adjusting the parking brake Reply with quote

I wish I knew! I am not sure how much tension to put on the rod...I it sounds like it should lock up the rears between 2-4 clicks...I don't feel like taking the rear end apart right now...maybe when I know I've got good weather, and can drive my "no salt on the road" car while I take this one off road and work on it.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: Adjusting the parking brake Reply with quote

dabaron wrote:
would an incorrectly adjusted parking brake with too much tension when disengaged affect the ability of the adjusters to automatically adjust the rear shoes?


The system only 'tightens.
The auto-adjust would be inactive because "there would be no need to tighten".
The shoes would just drag and wear out quicker, until it became 'correct'.
After that, proper operation would commence.
Provided the adjuster mechanism was 'properly assembled and maintained'.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


DJkeev's Bentley p46.11 pic - from a rear disc brake thread where the origin of the 2-4-click mechanics drum brake adjustment procedure was "re-discovered".
And whence the "emergence of the 3-click disc brake custom" was discovered. Wink
Disc brake parking brake adjustment- WHY 3-clicks?

....and with my rear disc parking brake, three futile clicks....

This setting gets you to the point where the automatic drum adjusters (attempt) to take over and keep the brake shoes adjusted properly.
For both clickety-click counting AND footbrake operation.
Which all depends on the adjuster mechanism operating properly.
Which requires a sharp corner on the knife that engages the serrations.
And if the serrations are filled with rust, worn off, or corroded off, the adjuster will stop where it cannot engage the next serration, and of course adjustment no longer advances.

Back in the day (2010) when I hated adjusting my drum brakes, I paid little attention to the adjuster mechanism.
I just assumed that it can't possibly work after some years and that upgrading to disc brakes was the answer to all problems.
The rear disc conversion improved the footbrake, but (95%) deleted the parking brake.
And there was the hush-hush on the parking brake delete for many years.

Fast forward to 2020, I'd enjoy trying to make a drum brake work in a hard-headed kind of way. Wink
(but now I'm all ga-ga over the Eurovan disc conversions....)
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:43 am    Post subject: Re: Adjusting the parking brake Reply with quote

no rust on adjusters, wheels spin freely with parking brakes disengaged. when i i set the brakes, the parking brake started at 3 clicks, up to 6 after driving it 500 miles and the pedal is very low.

the adjusters are on the proper side. i adjust the drag and the first trip after doing the brakes was amazing, the pedal applied the brakes up high... then as i used the brakes, the pedal went lower and lower. now it's bottom 3rd where the action is happening.

i reset the drag and the same thing is happening, after confirming the adjusters are on the proper side and they are moving when the pedal is depressed.

clearly i am doing something wrong.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: Adjusting the parking brake Reply with quote

Vanagon drum brakes are auto-adjusted by the parking brake.
Am I correct in suggesting that if you seldom use your parking brake, the brakes won't self-adjust?
Maybe you have to use the parking brake "A LOT" in the beginning to get adjusted?


Also, if your drums are worn to a large diameter, the rear shoes will wear (outward) much faster, causing the foot pedal to drop faster.
And as the brake shoes wear, (without adjustment) the foot pedal will depress farther and farther.
Maybe this condition requires more "parking-braking".

I suppose you understand the brakes mr. dabaron, I'm just trying to cover all bases for members trying to understand the rear drum brake system.
And in hopes a member who knows missing details will chime in.

dabaron wrote:
the pedal is very low.


If the pedal is dropping agreed it's not working.
This endangers you to purchasing a disc brake conversion kit. Wink

I have no drum brakes to test this on, but find this interesting.
With luck you may find an interested member who HAS drums and will take this on. Wink

====== rear drum auto-adjust test --- PROPOSAL ==========

(.....brake drum removed .... )

    Can you manually pry/lever/actuate the parking brake from the inboard side of the brake backing plate....?
    Can you watch the mechanism engaging and rotating the serrated adjuster?


==================================


Just for the discussion, here's a (very basic) drum brake YouTube that shows how a drum brake works. It does show a different type of auto-adjust, but it does rotate a serrated adjuster. This one does NOT use the parking brake mechanism. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnc3VnQ8kUY

It's possible that the Vanagon brake does both adjustment (by parking brake pulls) _PLUS_ auto adjustment by reverse-stopping?
Maybe someone knows this detail.

[strike-thru after dabaron confirmed that Vanagon rear brake auto-adjust is actuated by the slop in forward braking]
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: Adjusting the parking brake Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:


It's possible that the Vanagon brake does both adjustment (by parking brake pulls) _PLUS_ auto adjustment by reverse-stopping?
Maybe someone knows this detail.


the Vanagon drum brake adjuster works during application of the brakes during regular forward driving. as the gap opens as material wears, the adjuster rotates and pushes the shoes outward and "locks" in place to prevent back threading.

there is no adjust with the parking brake or adjust in reverse like with other drum brake systems.

this goes the heart of the query, if the parking brake cable is under tension with the parking brake lever disengaged, would that prevent the proper movement of the adjuster? i believe it could cause adjustment issues, but was hoping for verification.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Adjusting the parking brake Reply with quote

dabaron wrote:
Sodo wrote:


It's possible that the Vanagon brake does both adjustment (by parking brake pulls) _PLUS_ auto adjustment by reverse-stopping?
Maybe someone knows this detail.


this goes the heart of the query, if the parking brake cable is under tension with the parking brake lever disengaged, would that prevent the proper movement of the adjuster? i believe it could cause adjustment issues, but was hoping for verification.


OK that makes more sense that forward braking would be more reliable.

Is there a way to 'fake it' by prying with screwdrivers?

Interesting notion that using the center cable barrel nut adjuster to achieve the fabled '3-click' parking brake adjustment....
.....could disrupt the auto-adjust feature..

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:32 am    Post subject: Re: Adjusting the parking brake Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
dabaron wrote:
Sodo wrote:


It's possible that the Vanagon brake does both adjustment (by parking brake pulls) _PLUS_ auto adjustment by reverse-stopping?
Maybe someone knows this detail.


this goes the heart of the query, if the parking brake cable is under tension with the parking brake lever disengaged, would that prevent the proper movement of the adjuster? i believe it could cause adjustment issues, but was hoping for verification.


OK that makes more sense that forward braking would be more reliable.


and the more i look at the rear drum shoe assembly, the more i think that under tension, the adjuster can not work and that is the problem i have with the low pedal... the adjusters can't do their thing. i found a work note in the log the PO kept - he adjusted the parking brake T because it was too loose. i think it is now too tight, but the thread rod is bent and backing it off a pain. that's why i didn't do it. good times.

i think that will solve my problem. that saves a ton of money on 16" wheels, tires, and rear disc brakes Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Adjusting the parking brake Reply with quote

dabaron wrote:
i think that will solve my problem.


If the cable has residual tension with parking brake lever 'down', this seems like a valid "problem".

Can you look at the parking brake actuator on each backing plate to see if it "returns to rest" position?
This seems like a good way to adjust the center-barrel nut at the balancer.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Adjusting the parking brake Reply with quote

quick question regarding tension at the balancing bar - BEntley say "no noticable play at brake components" I assume they are referring to the tightening of the self locking adjustable nut at the balance bar.

How much tension should there be in the rod/cables when this is tightened properly? SHould it be so tight that the cables act almost like a rod?
_________________
-Kevin
Lincoln, MA

'86 Triple Knob Syncro w/EJ22
'78 Westy
'69 Single Cab
'65 Kombi - EZ-Camper
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