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Welldon82
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2014
Posts: 39
Location: Maine
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 Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:48 am Post subject: Loose upper or lower ball joint? |
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Good morning!!
Alright! So I replaced the upper ball joints on an 88. So far so good...except...the steering knuckle on the passenger side moves horizontally VERY easily.
Example: on the driver side I can put my hand where the tie rod goes and it supports most of my weight and won't really move.
On the passenger side if I do the same thing, the knuckle swings forward and I fall in my face. 
Now, I'm not sure which side would have the correct resistance. I couldn't tighten the castle nuts with a torque wrench because it would just spin. I used a hex to hold the joint and tightened them up with a regular wrench...they got pretty right.
The boots on both lower ball joints look good, dirty, but good. No idea when they were last replaced or if they could be the culprit.
Advice, suggestions and thoughts all welcome.
I have searched the samba and haven't found anything, hence this post. |
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61Scout
Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2011
Posts: 1297
Location: Shoreline/Yakima WA
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the joker
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 1287
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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Bently manual  you need the VW specs |
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Welldon82
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2014
Posts: 39
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Live and die by the Bentley, but I couldn't find anything about a loose/tight knuckle.
The search continues...hoping it's not the lower but half the front end is apart anyway, so that may be in the works. |
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61Scout
Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2011
Posts: 1297
Location: Shoreline/Yakima WA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Welldon82, again, you have an issue at the very least on the drivers side. A ball joint is made to rotate, but also to hold the knuckle. So with the tie rod disconnected it should swing freely side to side to allow the front wheels to turn, this is perfectly normal. If you had the tie rod connected you'd need to consider the tension created by having to move the steering rack. The tension or "feel" on this is hard to describe in words. Ball joints, though they can, don't typically catastrophically fail. They normally just get worn and become excessively loose. Eventually they cause other problems by putting other components under stress and issues start showing up in things like your alignment and tire wear. Now if they are excessively loose this is a problem too. I usually check then with everything connected, barely raise the wheels off the ground, then I take a long pry bar and pry up under the wheel. I've found this the easiest way to assess the condition of the ball joints, beyond the basic visual.
Anyway, it sounds like you're very concerned about this, so my vote would be to simply replace the lower joints since you're there and have everything apart. Since you posted about replacing your tie-rod ends, you also need to check your toe angle (at the least) after you get everything back together.
If it's been a while since you've gotten an alignment, then I'd suggest that too. But before spending money doing that make sure you've gotten all your suspension done front and rear. If I've replaced a whole bunch of suspension components, I personally like to drive it a few hundred miles and then get my alignment. My thought is that this allows the components a chance to break in and settle before an alignment is done.
Kevin
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1985 Tin Top, Subie 2.2 + 5MT
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Welldon82
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2014
Posts: 39
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a link to a video showing what is actually happening.
https://vimeo.com/112763998?utm_source=email&u...cwMQ%3D%3D
So yea, you'll see in the video that the upper ball joint spindle and nut spins when moving the knuckle. It does not on the drivers side.
The simple fix may just be loosening the nut a tad so it relieves the tension. |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Both ball joints should move like the first one. The nut and joint shaft should move with the knuckle. Either the nut on the second one is not tight enough or you have a problem with the way the joint fits into the knuckle.
Where did all those metal shavings come from?
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"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
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Welldon82
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2014
Posts: 39
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Ok. Sooooo, the first one is good (YESSS!). The second, driver side, like one of the guys mentioned is problematic. So as long as I get the torque right on that one it should fix the problem. I have a feeling it's over tightened...
The metal shavings? Good eye.
Wellllll, the nut would not come off after breaking it loose. So I took a hacksaw to it. To add to this story, the rubber flex line was in the way so I removed that and after sawing for an eternity, realized those shavings were going into the hard line on the caliper. Hence, new calipers and lines are in the works as well.
Note to self: don't let metal shavings in the brake system. |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5391
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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That drivers side one is definitely not too tight. If anything it is not tight enough.
The stud on the joint and the hole in knuckle have matching tapers. The nut pulls the tapered stud into the knuckle and when it is tight enough, the two tapers lock the stud into place in the knuckle. There is a ball on the top of that tapered stud that sits in a socket that is part of the flanged portion of the ball joint. That ball is meant to rotate/swivel inside the socket. In other words, the tapered stud/ball combination all rotates with the knuckle when you turn, but the socket/flanged section stays with the upper control arm and only pivots when the suspension articulates, but does not turn with the knuckle.
Try tightening the nut a bit more to see if you can lock the tapers together. If that does not work, I would remove the joint and inspect it to be sure that it is not damaged or to be sure that there is nothing inside the taper of the knuckle that would prevent the taper from seating properly. Judging from your video, it appears that more of the stud on the passenger side is sticking out from the end of the nut than on the driver's side. If this is true, it would indicate that the nut is not all the way tight on the driver's side.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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Welldon82
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2014
Posts: 39
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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So I took the ball joint out and looked at it, seems ok.
Here's the top of the knuckle, didn't see anything inside that would be hindering the bottom of the joint.
Also, the lower joint moves quite a bit by hand all over the place so it seems like that may need to be replaced as well.
That's a symptom of a bad lower joint right? |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17154
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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Free play in the lower ball joint would indicate it is worn out. Those are not as easy to change.
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61Scout
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Location: Shoreline/Yakima WA
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