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W1K1
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Read the ez cool FAQ they explain the difference
I used the ez cool, and will do again. My square is quieter than both our beetles and it is my daily, i can listen to the radio, and carry on conversations. The engine is a 1904cc with 36 dells and vintage speed exhaust.
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moab762
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W1K1 wrote:
Read the ez cool FAQ they explain the difference
I used the ez cool, and will do again. My square is quieter than both our beetles and it is my daily, i can listen to the radio, and carry on conversations. The engine is a 1904cc with 36 dells and vintage speed exhaust.


I'm sold. Thanks.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

W1K1 wrote:
Read the ez cool FAQ they explain the difference
I used the ez cool, and will do again. My square is quieter than both our beetles and it is my daily, i can listen to the radio, and carry on conversations. The engine is a 1904cc with 36 dells and vintage speed exhaust.


The squareback we had was much quieter than all of the beetles we ever had. They came from the factory that way. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

moab762 wrote:
CiderGuy wrote:
Frost king is sold at Home Depot , its primary use is for duct insulation. if you google it you'll find that it gets very good reviews when compared to other much more expensive sound deadening products.


Ya. I was gonna compare the thickness between that and Quick Roof and Peal & Seal.


You can always put a double layer of Frost King, and still be cheaper then just about anything else.
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moab762
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having researched the hell out of this issue. And read the many comments in here and all the other threads on Samba and throughout the internet. I'm definitely leaning towards one layer of (asphalt based roof repair tape) Frost King/Quick Roof/Peel & Seal - whichever is thickest at the time I buy at my local HD or Lowes.

(EDIT - You should take Frost King off your list if you plan on glueing anything to it. It comes in a roll like tape. With no paper backing. So they've apparently kept it from sticking to it's surface (The aluminum.) by applying a thin layer of oil or grease. So if you try to adhere another layer it will not stck. Nor, I would think, would there be a good contact for say 3M spray adhesive. Or any adhesive for that matter. Which is to bad. Because Frost King is actually a foam covered with aluminum. That is reported to be more of a sound deadener than Peal & Seal or Quick Roof. So unless you plan on just laying it down and then they laying your carpet on top of it with no adhesive. I would stay away from it.)

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(I steered away from Dynamat and it's many derivatives. As it was just to expensive. And far to many other people have had success with the cheap asphalt based products at your local big box hardware store. I've read some complaints. Never seen one pic where the asphalt based stuff ruined a car. But many many pictures where it worked perfectly. And reports back years later that it was still working fine. There just isn't enough hard evidence against this stuff for me not to save the money and use it. Asphalt based stuff will be in the sub $100 range. Whereas Dynamat is in the several hundreds of dollars range. There are fears of the asphalt off gassing bad things into your car. But my philosophy is we've been driving around with tar boards (asphalt) affixed to the floors and door panels of our rides for years. And driving around in cities filled with petrol burning engines spewing out god knows what into our lungs. I don't think this stuff - covered in other materials - will add that much to what we are already subjecting ourselves to. But if money is not an issue. Take a good look at the butyl based products. As they don't have those issues. Just my two cents.)

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So after a layer of Frost King or Quick Roof or Peel & Seal I plan to put down a layer of EZ Cool. Here's everything you ever wanted to know about EZ Cool (go back to it's homepage for even more info and ordering - there's a faq and customer testimonials. This guy also has over 3000 good marks on ebay from satisfied customers. It's used throughout the auto restoration world) - http://www.lobucrod.com/Sr%20Project%20Report1.htm

EZ Cool is a "foam" bubble pack material covered in foil. That cuts 98% of heat transfer and a large DB loss in sound coming through. And it's fire retardant. Or sufficiently enough. Relectix does the same thing for heat retardation. But not so much for sound retardation. As it's just a "plastic" bubble wrap material - not foam - covered in aluminum. So I chose the EZ cool. It's $145 for 200sq ft. Which is overkill. That would do a bug twice over. Meaning two layers. But I do intend to double layer it over the engine compartment (on the inside) and in the doors and rear quarters. Maybe even triple inside the rear quarters. In place of a free floating plastic encased pillow of insulation.

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Then carpet foam to get the proper contours needed in the headliner etc. Which is what my upholstery shop uses.

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Then headliner and carpet throughout. I think this gives you the best of all worlds. With heat reduction and sound reduction on every part of the vehicle.

I think you could easily go with just layers of EZ Cool. For $145. And still have your base's covered. But I like having the Quick Roof (or whichever asphalt backed aluminum you choose) adhered directly to the sheet metal. As I don't think the EZ Cool, with all it's bubble impressions, would lay solidly directly on the sheet metal. And provide as much sound deadening to the actual metal as the Quick Roof would.

If I could only choose one though. I would choose EZ Cool. It's light weight. Very good on heat (98%!). And very good on sound insulating. And most importantly it's VERY lightweight compared to the others. And it's CHEAP for what you get. 200sq ft for $145 would do a complete bus and then some. That's far cheaper than Dynamat or any of the other alternatives.

(I was going to use jute or felt padding. But I think it would retain moisture at some point. It's a fibrous almost recycled clothing fiber like material. And is not supposed to attract moisture. But I think it's an old school way of cushioning and sound deadening. And that it would eventually attract moisture and hold it. But if your on a tight budget. I would not fear using it and some form of Dynamat type material under it. Then lay your carpet and headliner over that.)

* The one thing I learned reading about all of this - especially here on the Samba - is that peoples remarks are a bit all over the place. Some swear by the cheap stuff at Lowes and HD. Others fear it. And only one person really stated unequivocally that it slid off his bug on vertical spaces and the roof. No report of how much prep was done. Or the heat conditions. Etc. Etc. I personally read enough first hand accounts via thread and personal emails. That convinced me I will be fine using the Lowes/HD stuff on my roof. IF I PREPARE the surfaces correctly. You can't just rip out the insulation and whatever else is stuck to your floor, walls and roof. And expect it to stay. Your surfaces need to be cleaned and prepped with acetone or some other cleaner. To make it fully ready to adhere to. I'm also covering it with EZ Cool. So perhaps that will even better insure it against running or dripping onto my headliner. If your fearful you could get just enough butyl based product to do the roof. And then do the rest in the cheaper Lowes/HD stuff.

I hope this helps someone else in the same situation here as I am. Trying to decide how to insulate their vehicle prior to doing a new interior. Do your own research. Butyl vs asphalt based sound deadeners is where you want to start. There's alot of information out there. But I think after reading all of it. You'll come to the similar conclusions. Lastly, those with bus's have many more options. As you can actually use hard styrofoam like house insulation in your big overhead and wall panels. So search those sections (Bus) when your looking for information about insulating your bus.


Last edited by moab762 on Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moab,

Nice job sharing some good information here. The one compelling argument I've never understood fully is the asphalt based products "off gassing". As you point out, new out of the factory VW's where covered with asphalt based tar boards as insulation. On the floors, in the doors and quarter panels, etc.. Someone smarter than me also pointed out in a thread like this that the "new car" smell you get in cars from then and today is different products/chemicals "off gassing" in it.

I don't think I'd be concerned with the off gassing potential of using an asphalt based product either. It's not like any of us really spend that much time in these cars each day to really have an effect. I'm sure as you pointed out, breathing the air in some of our cities is worse for us anyway. The things I think about is most of the time we drive our VW's, the windows are down or partially down. It's not like we have A/C in them.. lol I park my VW's inside with the windows down anyway which would also let any potential fumes dissipate as well.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wcfvw69 wrote:
Moab,

Nice job sharing some good information here. The one compelling argument I've never understood fully is the asphalt based products "off gassing". As you point out, new out of the factory VW's where covered with asphalt based tar boards as insulation. On the floors, in the doors and quarter panels, etc.. Someone smarter than me also pointed out in a thread like this that the "new car" smell you get in cars from then and today is different products/chemicals "off gassing" in it.

I don't think I'd be concerned with the off gassing potential of using an asphalt based product either. It's not like any of us really spend that much time in these cars each day to really have an effect. I'm sure as you pointed out, breathing the air in some of our cities is worse for us anyway. The things I think about is most of the time we drive our VW's, the windows are down or partially down. It's not like we have A/C in them.. lol I park my VW's inside with the windows down anyway which would also let any potential fumes dissipate as well.


Like I said. If I could afford the more expensive butyl stuff I would. But more so for the fact that it's removable. Unlike the tar stuff. The tar stuff is like the tar boards in your car now. It's put in to forget about. And it's probably just as hard to get out as asphalt based dynamat type stuff.

But the fumes? Ya. I'm not to worried considering everything else I come in contact with.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice layout on the products moab762. Well done. I think there are a good amount of us here looking to save a little $$ & I think your photos & info have given us lots.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eyetzr wrote:
Very nice layout on the products moab762. Well done. I think there are a good amount of us here looking to save a little $$ & I think your photos & info have given us lots.


Thanks eyetzr. I really appreciate the compliment. I did have to add this disclaimer above about Frost King though:

"You should take Frost King off your list if you plan on glueing anything to it. It comes in a roll like tape. With no paper backing. So they've apparently kept it from sticking to it's surface (The aluminum.) by applying a thin layer of oil or grease. So if you try to adhere another layer it will not stck. Nor, I would think, would there be a good contact for say 3M spray adhesive. Or any adhesive for that matter. Which is to bad. Because Frost King is actually a foam covered with aluminum. That is reported to be more of a sound deadener than Peal & Seal or Quick Roof. So unless you plan on just laying it down and then laying your carpet on top of it with no adhesive. I would stay away from it."

Which is to bad. Because I was actually going to use Frost King, then EZ Cool, then carpet padding, and then carpet. But now I'm going to choose the thicker of the two - Quick Roof and Peal & Seal. In place of Frost King. There's a great video on youtube showing a guy that used both in his trunk and trunk lid. And the sound test was obvious how much better the Frost King was.

So for now my minds made up. All told it costs about $340 for this type of layout. (With probably alot left over.) I plan on doing one layer of each on the entire car (including roof) of both QR or P&S and EZ COOL, and a double layer on the firewall areas in the back, and a triple or quadruple layer in the rear quarter panels of the EZCool.

So it's single layer all over the car of an aluminum backed asphalt adhered product. And a single layer of EZ Cool. And then double layers of both over the engine compartment in the back. And several layers of the EZ Cool in the rear quarters (over the single layer of asphalt that will already be there). This last bit in the rear quarter is to mimic the shitty little pillows of insulation VW used to put in those rear quarter panel gaps.

This price also includes several rolls ($40 worth) of aluminum tape to cover seams.

In addition, I think the adhering of the larger sheets of EZ Cool over the QR or P&S will keep it from drifting or coming off at all. As your basically anchoring it with the EZ Cool. And using aluminum tape on all the edges and seems. Of both the QR or P&S and the EZ Cool. So you have tons of anchoring going on. That should hold everything in place. Not to mention the carpet foam and carpet that gets adhered on top of that.

Now this is for my car which I want to put a maximum of sound deadening in. If you just wanted a decent job. And be free of later mess (if you wanted to remove this stuff) I would go with just EZ Cool. It really is the best product out there for heat and sound deadening combined. Not so sure about the sound deadening part though. As it will not be adhered as directly to the sheet metal as QR or P&S would be. That stuff actually sticks across the entire panels. So sound deadening from that aspect is fully covered. But like I said, If I could only choose one I'd go with EZ Cool and carpet padding and carpet/headliner. It's really well rated. Comes off alot easier than asphalt does. And is lighter weight. It's an amazing product. If it had a flat surface on one side like normal aluminum backed sound deadener. And some thick butyl or asphalt adhesive. That attached flatly and directly to the panel. Instead of the bubble wrap type contact it makes now. I think it would be the killer application.

And if your afraid of the asphalt type sound deadeners. You could easily substitute a butyl based sound deadener for the QR or P&S. And have the best of all worlds. That would truly be a killer combination. If you could afford it. And if you used Dynamat it can be removed just as easily (probably easier) than even the EZ Cool. Especially if you got it cold first.

Which is my next project. Removing the old tar board from the car with dry ice and isopropyl alcohol. Check out youtube for this. It's amazing. You mash up the dry ice with the alcohol into a sort of paste. Apply it to the old tar board. And using a putty knife it comes up in big sheets. You can actually hear the tar board popping off the sheet metal as you apply the dry ice concoction. It takes about 15lbs of dry ice and 96oz of isopropyl alcohol. Watch the video where they use the knife. Not the one where they beat the hell out of it with a hammer. It takes some finesse. But it comes off cleanly. With no residue.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^FYI...My local Ace hardware has 99%iso alcohol in the gallon size.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

c21darrel wrote:
^^^FYI...My local Ace hardware has 99%iso alcohol in the gallon size.


Awesome. I'll go look for that for sure!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I went to my local Lowes and Home Depot today. To look at various products i.e. - Useal and Peal & Seal (I could not find Quick Roof. Except Quick Roof Ultra Bond.).

And I have to say I was not impressed.

None of them seemed to be even a millimeter thick. Very paper thin aluminum. And very paper thin asphalt. One was even bleeding black asphalt liquid inside the wrapping. Just sitting on the shelf. Or from during storage or shipment. None of them seemed like they would provide very much sound deadening at all. I guess I was expecting more.

I'm spending at least $1500 on a new interior to go over this stuff. And I just don't see myself using it. Maybe they stopped making the good stuff? I don't know. All I know, is that I wouldn't put any of the material I saw today on my vehicle. I'll bite the bullet and spend the extra $225 and put real sound deadening material down. I was looking at $150 worth of one of them and a bunch of aluminum tape to cover leaky seams. I can get real sound deadener for $375 (112 sq. ft.) shipped to me. That's a difference of only $225. I think I'm going to spend the money. And not worry about whether I'm going to get black gunk all over my shiny new white interior. There's always that old saying that comes creeping back in - "buy once, cry once". And after seeing what I saw today. I definitely felt like I would be crying one day soon.

But I wasn't going to let this get me down. Following this turn of events. I went back to the drawing board. And started researching real sound deadeners. And I found this very helpful chart:

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My choice is the Raamat BXT II. I couldn't find Audio Technix 60. Or I might have sprung for that stuff. It's a wee bit thicker. But I couldn't find it locally. Or even anyplace on line that sells it. And frankly I like the light shade of grey that the Raamat comes in. As if it does leak. It won't be as bad as black.

So does Quick Roof and Peal & Seal work? I think it does. For some folks. And I wouldn't be afraid to put it on in a northern climate. But I live in Socal. And I have a black car. Yes. A "black" car. It absorbs heat. And for all the trouble it takes to clean the interior of your car. And to put in a new interior. I just don't see this as a place to cut corners.

I'm going with Raamat, EZ Cool, carpet padding and carpet/headliner. And call it a day.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raamamt looks like a good product - I will be checking that one out for my next project - thanks for all the research - close to $.50/ SQFT cheaper than second skin and thicker - that's a big deal when you are soundproofing a bus...FYI Damplifier is $3.41/SQFT and raammat is $2.93/SQFT per their websites...
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI for anyone shopping - this appeared in my email today:
http://marketing.secondskinaudio.com/admin/temp/newsletters/26/black%20friday%20email%20ad.jpg
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

marklaken wrote:
FYI for anyone shopping - this appeared in my email today:
http://marketing.secondskinaudio.com/admin/temp/newsletters/26/black%20friday%20email%20ad.jpg


I'll be using Second Skin as of 12:01 friday morning. Wink Great find!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking about this thread today. I wonder how effective the tar boards that the Germans put into these cars is? Most of the tar boards appears to be much thicker than these new products.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the tar board on the floor must do some good. Anything that gives the metal more mass is going to help with the acoustics. I've noticed in my '98 Honda (and my '69 beetle) that the manufacturer installed some asphalt tar board type stuff to the doors and rear quarter panels as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there any reason why you can't sound deaden under the back seat area? I was going to cover it with second skin, ez cool, carpet padding and carpet. Like the rest of the car. Then put my battery in one of those black plastic battery boxes. Just to protect it.

Any problem with that?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see no issues other than when batteries charge they "breathe" a bit & you want to evacuate those fumes (explosive fumes). I ran a similar box & put a vent tube in the box & ran the tube out of the car. A bit of piece of mind. Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Most of the tar boards appears to be much thicker than these new products


our 73 super had the stock tar boards and they were a layer of thick tar paper top and bottom with white styrofoam between. The ones from the 61' were just layers of tar and thick paper but thinner overall. Either way they were terrible for keeping dirt and moisture hidden under them in the grooves.

if you want to get a bucket of tar and some tar paper to duplicate the 40-50 year old system, then have at it. I think there are better products to insulate with now that weigh less and do a better job.
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