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t3 kopf
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Joined: October 22, 2012
Posts: 1115
Location: over by 'der
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 Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:39 pm Post subject: 1.9L WBX stock rebuild w/ pics and questions |
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I decided to take my other thread and just turn it into a rebuild thread. I am rebuilding a stock spare 1.9l i brought with me when i moved. The one in my van is fine and running great so im not sure what i wanna do with this one, but i do plan to take my time. So far, i have broken it down and cleaned the case halves and broken down the crankshaft and measured the journals. i have a set of standard sized main bearings, rod bearings and cam bearings on the way from van cafe.
Here's the case halves and crankshaft. I plan to prime and paint it over the week. Yes i know there is still a bit of the oil pump gasket on there.
The #1 main bearing dowel pin hole has a slight bit of ovaling. Im guessing this is from an improperly shimmed flywheel beating it up. The pin still sits tight in the hole, but i believe a bit of jb weld will be in order.
The case cleaned up rather nicely with just some engine degreaser and oven cleaner but those deeper spots near the cylinder bores are tough to get into. With a little more money i would have liked to take it to a machine shop to get it cleaned but i dont mind a little extra work. I dont plan to align bore the case because for one, oversized main bearings aren't available and the bearing bores in the case dont have any ridges when i run a fingernail across them.
The crankshaft journals all measured out around .001" to .002" under what the bentley standard sizes were so im good with using standard main bearings. Ill be plastigauging them when i reassemble. The journals were measured with a c-micrometer, not with the caliper shown in the picture.
The measurements of the crank journals were:
#1 main-2.361"
#2 main-2.163"
#3 main-2.163"
#4 main-1.573"
#1 rod-2.163"
#2 rod-2.164"
#3 rod-2.164"
#4 rod-2.164"
Heres my first big issue. The oil thrust ring that goes in front of the # 4 main bearing got damaged during removal when i let my friend have at it and he got a little overzealous. i cant seem to find one anywhere from any of the vendors. Are there any others that used this same ring or do i need to improvise a new one?
Am i looking at non stretch rod bolts here? I would assume i am since its a 1.9l but i want to be sure before i use these.
Im on the fence as to whether i wanna reuse this camshaft or not. The lobes look fine but there is a bit of pitting on some. Since cams are still available, i suppose it would be best to just buy another, but i dont wanna spend money that i dont have to spend. What do the experts say? I will be buying 8 new hydro lifters before putting the top end back together later on.
Heres a shot of what i believe is the factory red paint marking on the crankshaft
I believe that what killed this engine was a failed lifter. Upon taking it apart, one of the exhaust valve lifters was missing the clip. I could find nothing else wrong with it while i was tearing it down. The heads looked fine and didn't even have the common cracks. Pistons and cylinders looked good as well.
More to come as i continue. 
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Mellow Yellow 74
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Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 1615
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| I can't help with any of your questions but will be watching this build with interest. |
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imtb
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Location: st.l
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| I like the pics, keep'em coming |
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atomatom
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Joined: May 15, 2012
Posts: 1867
Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:05 am Post subject: Re: 1.9 l wbx stock rebuild w/ pics and questions |
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| NavyVW wrote: |
The #1 main bearing dowel pin hole has a slight bit of ovaling. Im guessing this is from an improperly shimmed flywheel beating it up. The pin still sits tight in the hole, but i believe a bit of jb weld will be in order.
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the dowel pins are supposedly guides only and not meant to stop the bearing from spinning. the bearing should be held tight from the force of the case. i would not jb weld this.
why new lifters? are the bottoms worn? i think that is the main wear part to be concern about. well, that and broken clips - (which i just read you found - you may want to include more about the engine state), but i think you can just buy a new clip. the clips are can be damaged by pushrods being reinstalled and not centered. you may want to disassemble and remove some 30 year old sludge.
you might try contacting an engine rebuilder to ask if they have the part you need. i've had van cafe send me hard to find used parts before, you just need to ask.
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:35 am Post subject: Re: 1.9 l wbx stock rebuild w/ pics and questions |
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| atomatom wrote: |
| NavyVW wrote: |
The #1 main bearing dowel pin hole has a slight bit of ovaling. Im guessing this is from an improperly shimmed flywheel beating it up. The pin still sits tight in the hole, but i believe a bit of jb weld will be in order.
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the dowel pins are supposedly guides only and not meant to stop the bearing from spinning. the bearing should be held tight from the force of the case. i would not jb weld this.
why new lifters? are the bottoms worn? i think that is the main wear part to be concern about. well, that and broken clips - (which i just read you found - you may want to include more about the engine state), but i think you can just buy a new clip. the clips are can be damaged by pushrods being reinstalled and not centered. you may want to disassemble and remove some 30 year old sludge.
you might try contacting an engine rebuilder to ask if they have the part you need. i've had van cafe send me hard to find used parts before, you just need to ask. |
Oh my........ Talk about opening Pandora's box!
Dowel pins....... Needed? Not needed? The function they provide.
I've gotten into trouble over dowel pin discussions!
My thought is this....... Yes, bearings are held in place by Bearing Crush. One wonders...... Why is the dowel pin ovaled out?
If Bearing crush were proper, they'd be no movement of the bearing. No movement equals no effect on the dowel pin. Sadly movement will tend to oval out the dowel pin hole......  .......
The Dowel pin hole is ovaled out so something is moving...... Movement is NOT good and it is very likely a precurser to Bearing Spin.......
Loose bearing crush is most often associated with Crankshaft Pounding on the Main bearing journals making them microscopically larger..... Thus loose.
Check very carefully for this. Clamp the case together, torque it down and see what your bore diameters are...... You may have a major problem just waiting to reveal itself.........
Note, expensive special tools are required to measure interior bores.
Not trying to be a Debbie Downer, just pointing out what could be a catastophic problem.
Dave
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Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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atomatom
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Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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this is how mine looked. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7141636#7141636 - pretty ugly. my main bearing was falling apart on the flywheel side.
aside from the case bore getting destroyed, do the head studs ever stretch? or is there any other cause of the case becoming loose?
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t3 kopf
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Joined: October 22, 2012
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Location: over by 'der
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies. I did look at that thread. I didnt see a followup though. How did the build turnout?
I was taught years ago by a vw shop owner who started in the 60s that the dowels AND the bearing bores keep the bearing from spinning. Who knows for sure though?
I got my bearings in the mail today. i will put them in the bores tomorrow and then measure them with a snap gauge with the case torqued together. Thats all i can do right now with the tools i have.
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| NavyVW wrote: |
Thanks for the replies. I did look at that thread. I didnt see a followup though. How did the build turnout?
I was taught years ago by a vw shop owner who started in the 60s that the dowels AND the bearing bores keep the bearing from spinning. Who knows for sure though?
I got my bearings in the mail today. i will put them in the bores tomorrow and then measure them with a snap gauge with the case torqued together. Thats all i can do right now with the tools i have. |
No no no....... Measure the empty bore with the case assembled and torqued.
BTW dowel pins provide alignment aid....... Not anti spin properties, although just by being the they do perform that task for a short while as evidenced by your dowel pin. They will wear a groove in the back of the bearing and Once that bearing rotates Enough to block the oil hole........... It's all over!
Dave
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Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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atomatom
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Posts: 1867
Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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my engine has been running well. i need to spend a bit of quality time checking it over again (check valve lash, test compression, check timing, etc), but no leaks and had good compression when i checked after the build (near 150 on all 4). it has been about 2000km so far. aside from the transmission failure/rebuild, only issue was holy exhaust, which is currently patched and holding.
good point though, i should update the build thread with the few-months-later update.
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t3 kopf
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Joined: October 22, 2012
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Location: over by 'der
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| djkeev wrote: |
| NavyVW wrote: |
Thanks for the replies. I did look at that thread. I didnt see a followup though. How did the build turnout?
I was taught years ago by a vw shop owner who started in the 60s that the dowels AND the bearing bores keep the bearing from spinning. Who knows for sure though?
I got my bearings in the mail today. i will put them in the bores tomorrow and then measure them with a snap gauge with the case torqued together. Thats all i can do right now with the tools i have. |
No no no....... Measure the empty bore with the case assembled and torqued.
BTW dowel pins provide alignment aid....... Not anti spin properties, although just by being the they do perform that task for a short while as evidenced by your dowel pin. They will wear a groove in the back of the bearing and Once that bearing rotates Enough to block the oil hole........... It's all over!
Dave |
i was talking about measuring the bearings for out of round. i knew what you meant. i'm not putting the case together for good yet.
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t3 kopf
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| Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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that didn't come out right on my end. i'm heeding the case bore advice, i'm just talking about torquing the new bearings in the case alone and measuring their inner diameter with a snap gauge to check that they are not out of round when installed.
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djkeev
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t3 kopf
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| Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Well, i put the empty case together and torqued it to the bentley specs today. I measured the bore of the #1 and #4 main bearing bores with a snap gauge in conjunction with a micrometer. I measured both bores that i could get to in three places each and my numbers were consistent.
#1 bore : 2.757" in 3 places
#4 bore: 1.969" in 3 places.
So i decided to measure the outer diameter of the new std size # 1 and # 4 main bearings to compare. the measurements were reassuring
#1 main bearing outer diameter: 2.7575"
#4 main bearing outer diameter: 1.9695"
Could it be possible for a #1 main bearing to wear on its outside diameter from getting beat up by the flywheel thrust? I threw away the old #1 bearing so i couldnt measure its OD. 
*edited to change the above question to #1 main bearing from # 4 bearing
Looking into the #4 main bearing bore
And the # 1 bearing bore
The torqued up case
Still on the fence on reusing this camshaft but im more on the "not" using it side.
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Last edited by t3 kopf on Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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djkeev
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t3 kopf
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Joined: October 22, 2012
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:50 am Post subject: |
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Cool. new camshaft will get ordered today.
To answer my own question above pertaining to rod bolts...my measurement of the threaded section of .970" translates to 24 mm. i measured it from the bottom of the threads to the top of the bolt. Since stretch bolts have a threaded section of 22mm and non stretch have a threaded section of 13 mm, mine are stretch and im glad i caught it instead of just assuming they were non stretch bolts because they came out of a 1.9l. the engine number suggests its a later model 1.9l which i read sometimes came from the factory with stretch bolts. Instead of trying to find non stretch bolts and messing with getting the rods reconditioned, i will dispense with that madness and buy a new set of rods from van cafe. The shopping list grows!
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| NavyVW wrote: |
| Instead of trying to find non stretch bolts and messing with getting the rods reconditioned, i will dispense with that madness and buy a new set of rods from van cafe. |
That is really the easiest way to go. |
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t3 kopf
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:08 am Post subject: |
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I hadn't been able to get much done for a while because i was busy a lot with work and holiday preperations. Also i was in the midst of picking up a new daily driver. A 2012 2.5l 5 speed beetle.......Welcome "new yeller" to the family.....
I got some priming and painting done to the case over the last few days. Recieved a new camshaft from van cafe, and i havent yet ordered the new rods yet.
The oil pressure relief valve cover was seized in there pretty good. No kind of screwdriver wanted to turn it, so eventually i had to use a lot of heat and a screw extractor. i managed to turn it out with the screw extractor and a rig consisting of a hex key and a breaker bar with a 14 mm socket. So, ill be in the market for a new cap. Are these the same size on all flat four vw engines?
Any advice on a method of cleaning the oil sump?
Thats all for now. More to come.
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atomatom
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
The oil pressure relief valve cover was seized in there pretty good. No kind of screwdriver wanted to turn it, so eventually i had to use a lot of heat and a screw extractor. i managed to turn it out with the screw extractor and a rig consisting of a hex key and a breaker bar with a 14 mm socket. So, ill be in the market for a new cap. Are these the same size on all flat four vw engines?
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someone makes one with a hex nut instead of that stupid slot. i bought one with a temp sensor in it too, but alas, wrong size/VW engine. :/ (so that answers your question in a roundabout way)
i regret not tapping a port for an temp sensor while i had it apart. i could do it now, but i'm too chicken.
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atomatom
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t3 kopf
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Awesome, thanks! Good ole Rocky Jennings...
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