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my65vert
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 6186
Location: Middleburg, Florida
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 Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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I personally do not use disc brakes on my VW's but if you think drum brakes are superior in any way over disc brakes you are mistaken.
I agree that a well adjusted and upkept drum brake set up works well, but in no way "better" than disc brakes.
just for example, disc brakes are far superior in wet weather , hills , heavy repeat braking ,.........
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OGJHC
Kombisutra;
I'm starting to get little wafts of bus stink coming from the north. Something about the unique scent of drivers seat padding when it's glued together with mouse piss and shit that really gets me going... and I'm smelling it! Oh yeah! Time to start loading up the equipment. |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20278
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
What if the OP wants his rear bolt pattern to match his front bolt pattern?
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I'm assuming that's what he's doing, otherwise I don't think the late rear setup offers any perceivable stopping improvements. Does it? Changing brake shoes without removing the 250+ lb/ft-torqued axle nut is nice though!
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Discs are definitely superior in many ways, no denying that fact. |
ONLY traction is in play at impending lockup, (or complete lockup if you panic and don't practice panic-stopping  ,) and that depends on one thing: tire-to-surface friction. For improved stopping performance we can only try to modify the friction in play between the tires and the road. Your bus, screeching to a halt, doesn't care if it's a disc setup, drum setup, or a stick between the spokes; locked tires are locked tires. Friction can be modified through weight transfer, brake force ratio, (front to back,) suspension setup, and tons of other little details. If I can evenly lock my tires in all weather and driving conditions, my drums will continue to be in service. [This is a much larger discussion, better suited in another thread.]
I understand this is not for everyone, but I'm getting a little tired of driving power-assisted buses that take more foot pressure to stop than my "crap" (quoting kevlarian in a pm) drums. However, I'm NOT getting tired of those bus owners then driving my bus and complimenting the satisfying feel of a well-adjusted drum setup.  I offered to let the OP drive my bus and then help get his to the same level, but I never received a response.
If anyone is too lazy to click four extra adjusting stars every other oil change, then maybe self-adjusting discs ARE the best solution! 
Please practice your panic stops,
Robbie |
At the bottom of a 2 mile long mountain pass, your drums will have faded long before a disc setup. Also, after a splash through a big puddle, that first step on the pedal of a drum brake bus will provide nearly zero stopping power, but the disc brakes will slow you smoothly and evenly.
I agree that a well built, maintained, and adjusted drum setup stops well. But only in ideal conditions. Those are the facts.
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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I never said they were better.
The bottom of a two mile long mountain pass?
I'm in third gear way before I have a chance to ride the brakes. If I have to brake more than 50% of the decent, I will downshift or cadence brake. Cadence braking: If you insist on riding it out, brake for a few seconds and let off for a few seconds. Repeat.
This is not something I do because I have drums; it's something I do in every car I service, because I enjoy making brake parts last for hundreds of thousands of miles. The Ford I learned to drive on eight years ago just got its first set of new pads and shoes at 126,000 miles. Driving style, baby! Don't they teach that in driving school still?
After a splash through a big puddle, that first step on the pedal of a drum brake bus will provide nearly zero stopping power, but the disc brakes will slow you smoothly and evenly.
Absolutely. Your tires will also have less grip too, and if your heat exchangers have any pin holes, you'll be hot boxing out of the vents and lucky if you can see out the windscreen. Remember the tire-road friction rule? Still in effect. If you don't remember to "wipe" your drums after a puddle, are you really driving consciously enough to know how much less pedal effort to apply to your discs now? Your Civic's ABS system does, but in these cars we must be 100% ACHTUNG! to the laws of physics and limitations of the chosen vehicle. Don't they teach you to do that anyway in drivers ed nowadays? Probably not. I met some young (19-20ish) folks from Poland this summer, and I was floored by how many GOOD habits they had, and when I asked, they said that drivers ed covered it all! 
Like Muir said, if we'd all drive like we were strapped to the front of our cars like Aztec sacrifices, the roads would be a lot safer. And even if not everybody does, heard protection by a conscious few (like human/animal vaccination practices) makes roads safer for everyone.
Hills
See above. Plus, the T1 engines have a pretty remarkable compression brake. Still, gaining speed is NO EXCUSE for not dropping a gear and/or cadence braking.
They stop well. I agree. And I never said they were better.
You could also put it in perspective this way:
How many miles a year do you (OP, and those considering a swap only,) drive your bus through less than ideal conditions? I don't know about you, but I've put 16k miles on my drums SINCE JANUARY. (These aren't flat Kansas miles either.) I'll let you know when I find myself in conditions that I wish I had more brakes.
I never said they were better. But they work for me.
Robbie
Pines to Palms Highway 74 - 4000 feet down in several minutes. No brake fade.
Toga Pass - 10,000 feet. Up in 2nd gear, down in 4th. Brakes felt great halfway down when I really laid on them to avoid the minivan in front of me that couldn't handle the curves.
Flagstaff, AZ - 7,000 feet down. 2,000' in the snow to Sedona, then 5,000' down to Phoenix in the pouring rain.
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Brian
Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Brian wrote: |
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I do not make any superlative claims. I only have positive experiences, and I always love helping others achieve the best with what they have. (I guess that's the teacher in me? I was legally required to give the a$$hole children the same quality attention in class. And I always did. Just like I'll always answer questions here and provide parts help locally in any way I can. Even if I don't like your 'tude  EDIT: and I'm not calling anyone here any names!  )
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20278
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| I never said they were better. |
Yet you continue to defend them. Drums work fine, we all agree. Discs work better, in all conditions. They are simpler to service. They are generally cheaper to repair/maintain, too. All modern vehicles use disc brake systems. There is a reason for that, and it isn't for no good reason.
We could sit here and debate the merits of each system for hours, and you could continue to provide us with evidence of your exploits with drum brakes, but it will prove nothing, and change nothing. If the OP wants to swap to discs, he should have access to all of our assistance with the info to do so.
For the record, I drive a 70 bus with stock drum brakes. I drove a 68 Westy all over this summer with stock drum brakes. I just bought a 68 single cab with stock drum brakes. I have no plan to change them any time soon. But I may go to discs on the 70 along with a 2.2 Soob conversion in the future. My only misgiving about the discs up front is the stupid looking small five bolt pattern. Gonna need some adapters....
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Brian
Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
| I have no plan to change them any time soon... Gonna need some adapters.... |
I do. Bernard sent me a picture of his buddies split window with a late bay beam and he runs the adapters no problemo. But for the front it seems like its better off just getting a wagen west kit.
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20278
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:05 am Post subject: |
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After reading that ^^^ I recalled that I used to have some stuff, so I went out to dig for it. Found it!
About ten years ago I started a project to adapt late bay discs to the front spindles of my 65 Riviera. I bought all of the brake parts, and found some small five to wide five adapters at a swap meet. I had some caliper brackets water jet cut, found the right seals, and was setting up the brackets for the correct spacing. I don't recall why I stopped building it, but it all went into a box and was stuffed into a parts bus/rolling storage bin.
I don't have the 65 anymore, but I could still use the brakes and adapters on my 70 if I decide to go that far.
HMMMM......
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Brian
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Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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100s of ways to accomplish the same thing. I don't like adapters but a well designed one would be fine
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kevlarian
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2014
Posts: 636
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:58 am Post subject: |
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I have to tell you. I spent about 15 minutes on the phone this morning with WagensWest to discuss their "MiniStang" Front Disc Brake conversion kit... sounds like an awesome conversion. These guys know their stuff. It is nearly $1300 for the kit, plus another $500 to drop the front!!! It sounds amazing but costly.
Does anyone have experience with the Mini Stang or the BUSTANG kits? |
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