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physast
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Joined: December 30, 2005
Posts: 675
Location: DC
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 Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:10 pm Post subject: CV axle into transmission disconnected |
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I have a 91 automatic transmission.
Today while driving I got a funny feeling like somethings was not right with the van.. I could hear some slight noise that was new to me.
When I got home I looked under the van and saw that the back passenger side CV joint where it goes into the transmission looked wet and the boot seemed wet at the end where the bar heads to the other joint at the wheel.
I felt the boot to see if it felt rubbery and not hard and gently pushed up against the black bar and the joint popped out of the transmission. 
What could cause this? How do I fix it? Any help would be appreciated!
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1967 L633 VW beetle (currently being restored...slowly)
1991 Orly Blue Vanaru 2.5L |
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kourt
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Joined: August 13, 2013
Posts: 1948
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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I recommend putting the van safely on ramps or jack stands and removing that axle entirely by removing the six CV attachment bolts on the transmission side and the six bolts on the wheel side. Set the axle aside.
Inspect the transmission output flange bolt for wear or damage. This is a single bolt that holds the flange on the differential shafts. The flange itself is toothed so the force of driving is carried through those teeth--but the single flange hold-on bolt is what is keeping it all together.
I recommend also having some replacement transmission output flange seals ready to replace what is most likely a blown seal.
You may want to investigate what would cause this bolt to fail. An overextension of the entire passenger side axle would qualify--if a van has a raised suspension, or a violent turn or maneuver that causes the passenger axle to telescope to the limit and beyond the limit of CV joint travel.
You want to keep this area clean and not introduce any substances into the differential where the seal has failed. You may want to check your differential fluid by making sure the van is level and removing the inspection plug. The fluid should just fill up to the bottom of the plug hole.
The flange bolt itself is a hex head fastener at least 4cm in length. Sorry I don't have a specimen in front of me to look at.
This is not a difficult job, and should not require any special measurements to fix if the output flange bolt is the problem. Any good fastener shop should be able to replace that bolt.
Got a Bentley manual? This work is covered and easily understood by reading the manual. Torque settings for bolts are important here.
kourt |
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physast
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Posts: 675
Location: DC
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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I don't have a bentley in front of me but will take a look tomorrow.
I am not familiar with this part of the van, but I guess now is a good time to learn.
So are you saying that once the axle is removed that the other part should slide back in?
It seems odd to me that the shaft is coming out freely. Is this the part you are saying is held on by one bolt?
I noticed the drivers side also moves fairly freely. Meaning I feel like if I were to pull on it it would also pop out.
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1967 L633 VW beetle (currently being restored...slowly)
1991 Orly Blue Vanaru 2.5L |
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IdahoDoug
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Joined: June 12, 2010
Posts: 10251
Location: N. Idaho
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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It looks like perhaps the bolts from both sides were improperly torqued, or perhaps completely forgotten.
Don't pull the flange out any more than you already have, and as you disassemble know you want to avoid pulling that out of the transmission. The flange is one piece on automatics with the shaft that goes directly into the differential itself. I'm not sure what would happen if it were pulled out, but I'd hate to find out that something falls out of place in side the diff, eh?
So, I'd order new bolts right away with the seals as the threads may not be something to trust at best, or at worst they may be chewed up. You may as well replace the seals since you're in there now, right?
Interesting find. Its on page 39.50 of my Bentley. I have only had a manual apart for replacing these seals, so I am glad to know in advance that it is different for the van I have now.
Doug
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader |
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kourt
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013
Posts: 1948
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:10 am Post subject: |
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Good morning all,
Each output flange is independent on the automatics, as they must be in any differential. You can pull each one out fully and not risk any other parts falling out.
You must pull out the flange fully to change the seals. Clean the flange carefully while it's out.
Determine if the single bolt that holds the flange is in place at all, and make sure those two bolts are replaced and torqued properly.
As I said before, the single bolt is not a weak point--the energy of driving is taken up in the toothed portion of the flange, and the single bolt should not be subject to any great amount of driving energy. It's just there to hold the flange in place (and has a relatively low torque setting).
The flange itself should not be sliding as part of the suspension. It is the purpose of the CV joints to expand and contract along the axial plane which gives the driveline continuous movement in the suspension.
A possible source of failure for this bolt is a bound CV joint that is no longer telescoping on the axial plane. This would pull at the flange in turns and possibly shear that single bolt.
kourt |
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Wildthings
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Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:28 am Post subject: |
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As others have said, you will find that the bolt that hold the output shaft/flange in place is missing, broken, or just plain loose. The bolts are a different length on either side, so if you need a replacement you need the correct length bolt for the side you are working on. It is probably best for the average Joe to use a torque wrench on these bolts. Assume that if one side came loose or broke that the other side is likely not far behind.
Replacing the seals at this point in time would be a good use of your time as you are going to be right in there anyway. |
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djkeev
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MacLeod Willy
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Joined: February 18, 2014
Posts: 933
Location: Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:07 am Post subject: bolt |
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| Do they use the same taper lock as the 003 or is a regular allen bolt? |
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physast
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2005
Posts: 675
Location: DC
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the info. Here is what I found this morning which was better than expected!
I loosened the 8 bolts and took the axle shaft off. Once I did that it was easy to push the output shaft/flange back in easily. However did not find a bolt at all Not even a sheered off head of a bolt which means I have been driving like this for over 7K miles. I am going to contact the previous owner to see why this bolt was not put on. Maybe he forgot, I hope it was not because it was stripped. Also I have not looked yet but do the normal vendors sell this bolt?
I pulled the shaft/flange out and the seal looks good! I have never seen a bad seal, but this one looks new to me.
Here is a pic of the axle. The grease oozed out and was not watery but liquid like when I removed the bolts.
I am thinking all I need is new bolts (probably both sides), new seals unless these can be re-used and to clean and repack with grease.
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1967 L633 VW beetle (currently being restored...slowly)
1991 Orly Blue Vanaru 2.5L |
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dobryan
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physast
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Posts: 675
Location: DC
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| dobryan wrote: |
Sounds like you may be able to fix this relatively easily. Good for you! 
Do you need CV joint grease? I have four extra tubes, or you can get it at the dealer or some FLAPS if you need it ASAP. |
I hope it turns out to be an easy fix! The fix will have to wait till next week so no rush. Thanks for offering the CV grease, but I will likely pick some up next week while at the store.
My next step is to find those bolts. Earlier someone mentioned that they are different lengths for each side.
I am still confused about the bolt. I assume it goes in the middle of the first picture, correct? I could not find anything using the search about this bolt.
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1967 L633 VW beetle (currently being restored...slowly)
1991 Orly Blue Vanaru 2.5L |
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kourt
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Joined: August 13, 2013
Posts: 1948
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:31 am Post subject: |
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This is a pretty special bolt, actually. I walked out to my spare transmission and took the passenger side bolt out so you could see it.
10cm long in total, with a beveled shoulder under the head. That bevel is what makes this bolt so special. You might have a hard time finding this bolt in the configuration you need.
This particular bolt has a stripped head, and I am rebuilding this differential, so I need to hang on to it (or else I would offer it to you).
I would also check the other side of your differential and see if both bolts were "forgotten" somehow.
There is someone on the Samba who has a bunch of Vanagon AT cores, I think in Arizona (search for "auto" in the ads). That person might be able to remove and send you the bolts for the flanges. I'm working with that same person to get a dipstick/dipstick tube/oilpan combo from one of the old cores. Give that a shot.
kourt
Last edited by kourt on Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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physast
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Thank you for the photo Kourt. I will check around and see what I can find. And this just goes down the center hole in my first picture? This seems to make since because in the second picture with it out you can kind of see threads where the bolt would go.
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1967 L633 VW beetle (currently being restored...slowly)
1991 Orly Blue Vanaru 2.5L |
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syncrodoka
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wcdennis
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| The bolts are a different length on either side, so if you need a replacement you need the correct length bolt for the side you are working on. |
This. |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Yes you should replace the seals, they are wear items and don't last forever. The one may also have been damaged by the axle moving in and out through it. You are not looking at a whole lot of money here, probably less than $10 per seal. Most of the cost of replacing a seal is in the labor getting to them, and you are already there on the one side. You will want to buy a seal remover and you will need some kind of blunt nosed punch or chisel as a driver. If you have never replaced a seal, you might find a mobile mechanic in your area to come do it for you.
You might just contact a VW dealer and see if the bolt(s) are still available. You never know when luck will come your way. |
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physast
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Posts: 675
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:52 am Post subject: |
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OK... I have been looking at the Repair Manual. Here is my plan of action.
Parts list:
2 X Drive flange oil seals Link to flange seals
1 X passenger side drive flange bolt (trying to source used original)
1 X drivers side drive flange bolt (trying to source used original)
1 X seal puller (recommendations?)
1 X tool to seat new seals (recommendations?)
1 X jar of Red Line CV-2 Grease
1 X day of free time
I Think I am going to just take the axle off the passenger and drivers side transmission side install new seals install flange bolt repack with some grease and re-install axles... I suppose I could at this point do more, but if nothing pops out as needing attention I will likely not give it any.
Questions:
1. Are those the correct seals in the link above?
2. what do you use to remove the seal? Install the seal?
3. Any tips, helpful hints, recommendations?
4. can you mix different types of grease?
5. What kind of grease would you recommend?
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1967 L633 VW beetle (currently being restored...slowly)
1991 Orly Blue Vanaru 2.5L |
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physast
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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One more...
6. If I was feeling adventures what else would be good to do while taking on this job?
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1967 L633 VW beetle (currently being restored...slowly)
1991 Orly Blue Vanaru 2.5L |
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dobryan
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Posts: 16505
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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Charlie, You should not mix greases. Those CV's should be cleaned up and new grease added. It is not hard but is messy.
What are the condition of the CV boots? Do they need replacing? If they do Van Cafe sells a boot kit that includes new boots, bolts, and grease.
The correct grease will have molybdenum as an additive. Do not use any ordinary wheel bearing grease, it is not made for CV's.
Search and you'll get some threads on CV joint work.
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'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
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physast
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| dobryan wrote: |
Charlie, You should not mix greases. Those CV's should be cleaned up and new grease added. It is not hard but is messy.
What are the condition of the CV boots? Do they need replacing? If they do Van Cafe sells a boot kit that includes new boots, bolts, and grease.
The correct grease will have molybdenum as an additive. Do not use any ordinary wheel bearing grease, it is not made for CV's.
Search and you'll get some threads on CV joint work. |
The boots are good and were replaced right before I purchased the van. I looked at the boot kit on van-cafe. They mention on the kit page that the Lobro brand is all they feel comfortable with, but then on the CV grease page of van-cafe's site they sell a different brand and not the Lobro brand at all.
Maybe I am seeing this wrong, but why would they recommend the Lobro brand but only sell it with the kit?
I will keep researching..
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1967 L633 VW beetle (currently being restored...slowly)
1991 Orly Blue Vanaru 2.5L |
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