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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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 Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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IMO, your tests with 10W-xx, 15W-xx and 20W-xx are a bit of a waste of time. For below zero temps, everyone should be using a 0W-xx or at least a 5W-xx.
Why don't you get a couple of 0W and 5Ws and repeat your test?
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
IMO, your tests with 10W-xx, 15W-xx and 20W-xx are a bit of a waste of time. For below zero temps, everyone should be using a 0W-xx or at least a 5W-xx.
Why don't you get a couple of 0W and 5Ws and repeat your test? |
Had I tested 5w and 0w oils I would have learned nothing at all. The stuff is thin and allows for easy winter starts. You already know that as do I. I ran 5w40 year around for a long time until I took my bus to the low elevation desert where I found that 5w40 made an unacceptable oil for truly hot summer days and thus I replaced it with a more appropriate oil for my present use, a 15w50 synthetic.
By testing 10w, 15w, 20w, and straight 30wt oil I learned a lot. One being that some multigrade oils don't come close to meeting their "winter" grade specifications and another that better quality 30wt oils have a much higher viscosity index than most people realize. Actually I already knew or at least strongly suspected the latter, many modern straight weight oils being essentially synthetic oils and thus offering superior performance to additive laden dino multigrades. Since most ACVW owners seem to live in fairly warm climates it also make sense to test the oils these owners actually run, especially when conditions might become marginal, such as a bus owner that runs 20w50 year around in Sacramento and thinks the oil will do fine for an occasional weekend Tahoe ski trip because it is both rated and recommended for those temperatures. My testing might convince him that he should use a different oil, whereas testing of 0w and 5w oils would tell him little or nothing. |
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| By testing 10w, 15w, 20w, and straight 30wt oil I learned a lot. One being that some multigrade oils don't come close to meeting their "winter" grade specifications and another that better quality 30wt oils have a much higher viscosity index than most people realize. |
I appreciate your experiments and find the results quite interesting, especially the straight 30 being apparently thinner than 20W at the temp it's supposed to be the other way around. However, I wouldn't classify all multigrade oils as not meeting their specs just yet since you didn't test them all at their specified temps. For an example, would the 30 still be thinner than the 20W-50 at -20C?
I am still trying to assimilate your observations on bearing knock with winter grades at high temps. It would seem there would be a very small window for that to happen from 0RPM until Idle and the moment oil pressure builds up. After all, 0W-40 is thicker at 150F than straight 40 is at 200 F
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
IMO, your tests with 10W-xx, 15W-xx and 20W-xx are a bit of a waste of time. For below zero temps, everyone should be using a 0W-xx or at least a 5W-xx.
Why don't you get a couple of 0W and 5Ws and repeat your test? |
Had I tested 5w and 0w oils I would have learned nothing at all. The stuff is thin and allows for easy winter starts. You already know that as do I. |
If you tested 0W and 5W oil, it would show how wrong it is to use 10W, 15W or 20W in cold weather.
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce wrote: |
| If you tested 0W and 5W oil, it would show how wrong it is to use 10W, 15W or 20W in cold weather. |
That is some badly flawed logic. The only way to see if a given 20w50 oil is okay to use in a certain condition would be to test it, not some other oil. |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| The only way to see if a given 20w50 oil is okay to use in a certain condition would be to test it, not some other oil. |
Since the oil filter will likely explode with 20W-50 in cold weather, attempting a 'test' seems like a fairly moot point. Think I'll stick with my 5W-30...
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| miniman82 wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| The only way to see if a given 20w50 oil is okay to use in a certain condition would be to test it, not some other oil. |
Since the oil filter will likely explode with 20W-50 in cold weather, attempting a 'test' seems like a fairly moot point. Think I'll stick with my 5W-30... |
Your choice of oil is totally unsuitable if the temperature is -40°F so why do you run it? To most people that are running 20w50 cold weather would be 50-60°F yet you seem to presume that they all see the same winter temps that you see. |
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AXAM
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2003
Posts: 314
Location: Gods country,ca
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:53 am Post subject: |
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Back to the original topic. Use a oil that will protect the lifters and cam. Brad Penn. You don't need to add some additive to boost your oil protection abilities if you use the correct product to begin with. One must be careful if using something other than brad penn. I sell the 0-30, 5-30 and 10-30,10-40 to more vw owners than 20-50
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Life is Good! Have a Nice Day!-don't worry about the jerks out there on the forum, in the end... they fall, and fall hard!
Peace! |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:53 am Post subject: |
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60*F is cold weather? I'm still running around in a T-shirt, that's hardly cold by anyone's definition especially an engine...
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| miniman82 wrote: |
| 60*F is cold weather? I'm still running around in a T-shirt, that's hardly cold by anyone's definition especially an engine... |
Yep, a cold winter's night in San Diego would be 50°F while a warm winter's day in Fairbanks would be 0°F. I personally would choose different clothing for those two situations and choose different motor oils. |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Hence my pointing out that saying 'cold weather' is subjective to people and not engines, which is why you need to quantify instead of just saying 'cold'. 20-50 is still wrong for just about any engine regardless of OAT, if you ask me. I'd much rather have an oil which gets around the engine to lubricate it and install a bigger oil cooler, than put in tar and wait for the inevitable rebuild/explosion.
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| Strange, I would say from my experience that ambient temperatures greatly effect engines. Of course I have started and used engines from cold (-20°F) to very hot conditions to very hot (120°F+) conditions, and long ago figured out that cold ambients were one of the main killers of ACVW engines as this allowed for moisture build up in the oil, this being the notorious cold start problem that the SAE says causes high levels of engine wear. Other than that I have seen nothing to disprove my old lubrication professors argument 'that an oil is thin enough if the engine cranks well.' |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
| If you tested 0W and 5W oil, it would show how wrong it is to use 10W, 15W or 20W in cold weather. |
That is some badly flawed logic. The only way to see if a given 20w50 oil is okay to use in a certain condition would be to test it, not some other oil. |
No, flawed logic is testing 20W-50 below freezing. What a waste of time.
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:40 am Post subject: |
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I'm not going to argue whether grades like 20W-50 or straight 5W (if they still made it) are ok to use in our VW air-cooled engines since VW did approve of them in the past. However, what I don't get is why most have to take it to an extreme. I see guys stuck on straight 30 for below freezing weather. I see ones who won't use anything except the thickest 20W-50 even on brand new engines. Others think 0W-20 is just the greatest stuff. Quite a few have to have more ZDDP than a formula one engine has. And then everyone can't figure out why they cannot get more than 100,000 miles on an engine. Wildthings, although he has some strange reasonings does have some good points and has settled on a not extreme oil for his climate and therefor has gotten some great mileage out of his engine. Others like Glenn seem to have done the same.
My point is to use some common sense. ZDDP is important, and higher performance needs more of it. But you don't need 2500ppm of it. No need in using the thickest or thinnest possible either.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| Strange, I would say from my experience that ambient temperatures greatly effect engines. Of course I have started and used engines from cold (-20°F) to very hot conditions to very hot (120°F+) conditions, and long ago figured out that cold ambients were one of the main killers of ACVW engines as this allowed for moisture build up in the oil, this being the notorious cold start problem that the SAE says causes high levels of engine wear. Other than that I have seen nothing to disprove my old lubrication professors argument 'that an oil is thin enough if the engine cranks well.' |
You're obfuscating, I never said it didn't mater. I said what's perceived as cold to a human is not cold to an engine or its oil, read what I posted. 60 isn't cold, even for 20W-50.
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747
| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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jcmyers
Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2012
Posts: 184
Location: United States
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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A good kitty lubricant is very important!
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Good! Maybe now I can get the wife to help with changing the oil.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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BeetleUy
Samba Member
Joined: February 04, 2013
Posts: 156
Location: Uruguay
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 10:27 am Post subject: |
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Hi, doors anyone know the % of zddp in motul 20w-50 and if it is suitable for our cars?
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2015 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| BeetleUy wrote: |
| Hi, doors anyone know the % of zddp in motul 20w-50 and if it is suitable for our cars? |
Motul has a 20W-50 mineral oil that's API SF rated for cars built between 1950 and 1970. Yes it would work in a stock engine and have enough ZDDP. Likely around 800ppm phos or more.
However I'm using Motul 8100 series (which doesn't come in 20W-50) in all my vehicles. It's API SL rated and VW specified! For a performance engine, however, I'd probably go with Motul 300V racing oil.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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