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belgianboxer
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Joined: March 10, 2007
Posts: 280
Location: Belgium
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 Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:33 am Post subject: Karmann factory photo - Type 34 cabriolet (M341)? |
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It is believed that Type 34 Karmann Ghia cabriolet prototypes (M341) have been built until late 1962 before VW eventually decided to abandon the project. Now, I’m a bit puzzled after seeing this picture of what appears to be a BMW 2000CS coupé and an unfinished Type 34 cabriolet side by side in the Karmann factory. The picture is from a 1965 official Karmann factory brochure. From my information, the 2000CS was built by Karmann for BMW from 1965 to 1969. Could it be possible that Karmann continued building M341 prototypes in 1963 or even later?
PS: Type 3(4) cabriolet prototypes have been discussed earlier in these topics:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=217476
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=437201
Last edited by belgianboxer on Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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gregson1
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Joined: December 13, 2004
Posts: 464
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| If you look closely, none of the rear skin of the car is yet in place. The front windshield frame Has been installed, which is followed by the rear window frame, followed by the side roof frame pieces, and then the roof and rear fender skins, and then the rear valence panel. I don't know the exact assembly order, but what you are seeing is the natural progression of the Type 34 coupe body build. |
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retrowagen
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:42 am Post subject: |
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The BMW 2000C / CS Coupes were the first contract built at the new Karmann factory in Rheine, about 50km away from the main Osnabrück site, where the 34's were assembled. The production run of that BMW body began in July of 1965, according to the excellent Dieter Knust book, "The Karmann Story."
It's my best guess that what we see in the well-known, but seldom considered photo is the prototype shop, circa 1963.
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David Ruby
President, Karmann-Ghia World Club |
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t3kg
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Location: Los Angeles
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reay
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Joined: July 14, 2004
Posts: 675
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| t3kg wrote: |
| Regardless, it's very cool to see a Type 34 and a 2000CS being built next to one another. |
And it's cool to see humans actually crafting metal work instead of robots.
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Tom Reay
Da weiss man, was man hat!
68 Karmann Ghia Sunroof / auto T345
66 Standard Microbus T221
66 1200a Standard 115 with factory ragtop |
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belgianboxer
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Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| gregson1 wrote: |
| If you look closely, none of the rear skin of the car is yet in place. The front windshield frame Has been installed, which is followed by the rear window frame, followed by the side roof frame pieces, and then the roof and rear fender skins, and then the rear valence panel. I don't know the exact assembly order, but what you are seeing is the natural progression of the Type 34 coupe body build. |
Interesting remark, so possibly we're just seeing an unfinished coupé body.
| retrowagen wrote: |
The BMW 2000C / CS Coupes were the first contract built at the new Karmann factory in Rheine, about 50km away from the main Osnabrück site, where the 34's were assembled. The production run of that BMW body began in July of 1965, according to the excellent Dieter Knust book, "The Karmann Story."
It's my best guess that what we see in the well-known, but seldom considered photo is the prototype shop, circa 1963. |
Very usefull info. Personally, I also tend to believe this is a photo of the prototype shop.
It is also clear that the picture is meticulously directed. All the craftsmen are obviously posing. It wouldn’t surprise me if the car bodies were put in place just for the photo. |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22410
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| gregson1 wrote: |
| If you look closely, none of the rear skin of the car is yet in place. The front windshield frame Has been installed, which is followed by the rear window frame, followed by the side roof frame pieces, and then the roof and rear fender skins, and then the rear valence panel. I don't know the exact assembly order, but what you are seeing is the natural progression of the Type 34 coupe body build. |
That was my thought too. Unfinished coupe, or coupe in the middle of being built.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Rome
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Very carefully staged! Young'uns working alongside old masters; the kid in the red vest on the right working on a BMW center console form; dude on far left monitoring work on the BMW; supervisor in the center wearing a medium-blue lab coat close to the fire extinguisher.
Definitely representative of a working day within a large prototype shop. But why is nobody wearing gloves while working with sharp metal edges?!
For theSamba readers not familiar with the BMW, here's a shot of a nicely done one with a similar photo perspective as the one in the Karmann photo: http://fabwheelsdigest.blogspot.com/2011/03/bmw-2000cs-1965-69.html |
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Donnie strickland
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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That's an interesting link -- the BMW and the T34 share some body lines, no?
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belgianboxer
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Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| Donnie strickland wrote: |
| That's an interesting link -- the BMW and the T34 share some body lines, no? |
True. Both The Type 34 and 2000CS had this distinctive horizontal swage line encircling the entire car, creating a feeling of horizontality, accentuated by the very flat front trunk and rear hood. The similarity of the Type 34 design to that of the Chevrolet Corvair (1959-1969) is also unmistakable and therefore sometimes referred to as the ‘Corvair-Style’. The horizontal swage line is a feature that can be seen on other European cars of the same era, such as the NSU Prinz 4 and 1000/TT, the Fiat 1300/1500 sedan, the Panhard 24 and several BMW’s.
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Bobnotch
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| Rome wrote: |
But why is nobody wearing gloves while working with sharp metal edges?! |
You've never worked in a metal shop or fab shop have you? You use your fingers and or finger tips to feel for irregularities. In a prototype shop, everything would be completely deburred. 
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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t3kg
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Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| belgianboxer wrote: |
| Donnie strickland wrote: |
| That's an interesting link -- the BMW and the T34 share some body lines, no? |
True. Both The Type 34 and 2000CS had this distinctive horizontal swage line encircling the entire car, creating a feeling of horizontality, accentuated by the very flat front trunk and rear hood. The similarity of the Type 34 design to that of the Chevrolet Corvair (1959-1969) is also unmistakable and therefore sometimes referred to as the ‘Corvair-Style’. The horizontal swage line is a feature that can be seen on other European cars of the same era, such as the NSU Prinz 4 and 1000/TT, the Fiat 1300/1500 sedan, the Panhard 24 and several BMW’s.
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The Corvair was just the first example that went to market of a stylistic theme that was common in the auto styling world in the very late 1950s and early 60s. If you look at car styling sketches from that time almost all of them have a lack of tailfins, pronounced beltline and a large greenhouse with thin pillars and lots of glass. This design direction must have felt clean and modern after the previous years of fins, chrome and excess. The lines of the Type 34 and 2000CS have more in common with each other than either has with the Corvair, which was also a much larger car.
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I WAS THERE! The 2017 Type 3 Rally / September 29–October 1 / Cayucos, CA
2014: The 2014 Type 3 Rally / October 3–5 / Cayucos, CA
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Rome
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Location: Pearl River, NY
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| You've never worked in a metal shop or fab shop have you? You use your fingers and or finger tips to feel for irregularities |
And here I thought I was being so clever, Bob!  No, I never worked in either, though regularly walked through one in my job over 30 years ago. I'll gladly take your word for the metal edge bare-skin feel, if nothing else than from your incredible metalwork on your Type 3s. |
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Nate M.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:14 am Post subject: |
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Not being a fan of the T34, IMHO they all look equally ugly to me. At a glance the Corvair and the T34 look very similar in the photo. I would bet that most of you with T34s have people compliment you on your Corvairs all the time by people on the street. . . 
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Nate M.
Squarsche build
Heavy Metal Affliction feature
For heaven's sake, put a type4 and a Porsche 5-speed in there. . . It's the right thing to do!! |
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t3kg
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W1K1
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Yeah, just like the people who tell you they used to have a Volvo just like yours. |
I get that all the time, there is a restored Volvo wagon in town in a similar red color.
Yup, theres a car just like yours..... 
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1965 squareback 1500E
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belgianboxer
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Location: Belgium
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| belgianboxer wrote: |
| gregson1 wrote: |
| If you look closely, none of the rear skin of the car is yet in place. The front windshield frame Has been installed, which is followed by the rear window frame, followed by the side roof frame pieces, and then the roof and rear fender skins, and then the rear valence panel. I don't know the exact assembly order, but what you are seeing is the natural progression of the Type 34 coupe body build. |
Interesting remark, so possibly we're just seeing an unfinished coupé body.
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On second thoughts, why would Karmann have a coupé in the prototype department around 1963-65...? |
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eyetzr 
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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I would guess that it is a coach build shop. Personally I think it is an early chop shop. The guy in the medium blue coat looks like he has a sawzall & the guy with the fire extinguisher is about to prank the guy with the piece of sheet metal. OH the fun that will ensue 
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I think he meant "rare", as in "not well-done" |
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t3kg
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| Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| belgianboxer wrote: |
| belgianboxer wrote: |
| gregson1 wrote: |
| If you look closely, none of the rear skin of the car is yet in place. The front windshield frame Has been installed, which is followed by the rear window frame, followed by the side roof frame pieces, and then the roof and rear fender skins, and then the rear valence panel. I don't know the exact assembly order, but what you are seeing is the natural progression of the Type 34 coupe body build. |
Interesting remark, so possibly we're just seeing an unfinished coupé body.
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On second thoughts, why would Karmann have a coupé in the prototype department around 1963-65...? |
Maybe it's just staged, as others have said, and they just needed unfinished cars for the photo shoot? At that time the 2000CS and Type 34 might have been the most impressive cars being built at Karmann.
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I WAS THERE! The 2017 Type 3 Rally / September 29–October 1 / Cayucos, CA
2014: The 2014 Type 3 Rally / October 3–5 / Cayucos, CA
2011: 50 Years of the VW Type 3 / September 29–October 1 / California Central Coast |
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Josthud
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| Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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I want that guy's job standing in the middle, in the blue coat  |
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