Looking for engine advice.

[zak414]

I have an H case which I assume is original to my car. I don't know the history of it at all, but it's been working for me for over a year and almost 10,000 miles. I took out the engine today to start installing some missing tin and clean it up. While I had it out I tried to torque the heads for the first time since I've owned it and the two lower center studs on the 3/4 side are pulling out of the case. Also before I tightened them I could have taken those two nuts off with my fingers.

At this point I'm looking for advice on what my next step should be. I know I can get case savers installed and work with what I've got, but I figured I'd take some pictures of the 3/4 pistons and the head on that side. I have no idea what I'm looking at so I don't know if everything looks like it should or if it's looking like it's at the end of it's life.

So based on what the inner workings of my engine look like am I due for a rebuild or can I just get some case savers and keep on going for awhile?

And if anyone knows what the approximate cost of getting case savers installed vs. getting a rebuilt engine are that could help me make the decision on my own.

Thanks.

Head

Pistons

_________________
1962 Bug
40 HP Engine
28 Pict Carb rebuilt by Volkzbitz
Big Cap Distributor rebuilt by Tasb

[Multi69s]

From the lack of carbon build up, I would say that it is a fairly new engine. I don't suppose you had an oil pressure gauge? If not, did the oil light flicker a lot when hot and idling? I know that the oil light flickering is somewhat normal, but just trying to get a feel for the overall engine. It is too bad that the studs pulled. From your pictures, it looks like there might have been quite a few miles left in the engine.

If there was a way to install the case savers with the engine still partially assembled, I would say go for it. Slap it back together and go. The valves appear to be running high in the seats (good), No major carbon build up on the heads or pistons (good). However, unless you had an oil gauge, we don't know the condition of the bearings. If funds are tight, and you have access to measuring tools, you might go this route.

Pull it down and visually inspect and measure all bearings and journals. If they measure out, you might be able to reuse them. Hone the cylinders and put in new rings, and at least do a valve job on the exhaust valves. However, if you have the funds, while it is apart I would throw in new bearings. Remember, myself and others that chime in are just looking at 2 pictures. However, base on them, if the lowerer end was setup right, the most expensive part of your build, will probably be having the case savers installed.
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[zak414]

I don't have an oil pressure gauge and I'm ashamed to admit this, but I've been running with a faulty oil pressure switch for a little while. When it was functioning I never had any issues with the light flickering.

It's good that everything looks good based on what you can see, but at the same time that's almost makes it harder for me to make a decision on what to do. Budget isn't necessarily an issue, but time is. This car is my daily driver and I need it back together as soon as possible. As much as I would love to do it, I don't have the time right now to completely disassemble the engine and inspect everything. But I guess that would make me think twice about giving up this engine as a core if I decide to get a rebuilt engine.
_________________
1962 Bug
40 HP Engine
28 Pict Carb rebuilt by Volkzbitz
Big Cap Distributor rebuilt by Tasb

[modok]

Those look like possibly 87mm cylinders. Seems to be a leak at #4 towards the middle, which is a bit of an odd spot for a leak..........lets say that's due to the studs pulling.


Don't SEE any problem looking at the head. I'd be thinking hopefully the heads are good, maybe crank and flywheel too, and gears, rest may be junk....or Junk that is not entirely worn out yet.

So fix or re-build??? if it runs ok then put some of those medieval self tapping head-studs in there and keep going till it's dead!!!

Or tear it down and keep the good parts but I'm thinkin the case isn't one of em

[VWCOOL]

[Aussiebug]

Being an H series case, which are made of inferior alloy (VW were testing alloys with higher heat transfer properties), you have to check the case VERY carefully for any cracks, especially around the base of No3 cylinder (usually the first place they occur). Otherwise getting case savers might be for nothing. The H case metal gets brittle with age so it's not a good case if it needs machining (which case savers need of course, but THAT's a relatively straight forward job)

And did you check the end play before you pulled it apart? If it's grown beyond tolerance (3-6 thou) then you have to worry about a spun bearing or two, and if THATS' happened, you could end up spending big bucks getting it all rebuilt and end up with it breaking/cracking again in short order.

The H series cases are OK for a stock 1500/1600 rebuild if they don't need excessive work, but nothing bigger than that, and it DOES look like 87s in there - the top sealing lip on the cylinders look rather thin, and I think I see a burn mark starting on the landing on the left cylinder of the head in the top pic. Cracking across the head from the spark plugs is not uncommon either, if the engine has been run very hot in the past.

I have an H case with 400,000km on it (one rebuild), but I've kept it almost stock (1600P&Cs) and looked after it all it's life. So they CAN last, if properly cared for and driven sensibly.
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[morymob]

There r replacement oversize self tapping studs u could use 4 your purpose, used them in the past. The head with loose studsshow some comp leak, now would br good if u had another cyl & lap those 2's cyl seating surface, leaks tend to remove some material from head, how long/how bad depends how much. These sealing areas r important, I always lap 'em all , new & used, my 2 cts. U can test valves by sitting it valves up,, fill chambers with gas or thinner & check leaking past valves, if some & seat dont look burned a lapping usually cleans them up, your choice how far u go/ time . Ucan pry up/dn at bottom of flywheel 4 idea how much wear in mains, hard to tell u how much, will have some if brng worn/loose in case, norm is a very small amt(?) End play check , less than 6tho.

[gt1953]

The "H" case was known for it pulling studs. Yes you can case sver that case. It also is only a single relief. Sit back and look at your all of your possibilites. Then pick the one that will be best for you.
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[zak414]

Thanks for all the input guys. You guys are helping me learn a lot about this engine just from the two pictures you've seen.

It was mentioned that my pistons look like 87s. So am I running something bigger than a 1600 right now? I was told it was a 1600 when I bought it, but I think the previous owner knew just as little about the engine as I do.

As for endplay, all I can say is that I can't detect any kind of play by pulling and pushing on the flywheel or moving it up or down. Not sure if that's a good sign or not.

I just got off the phone with a place that quoted $130 to install case savers in my block. Only problem is they're in Southern California. I'm trying to find some local places that can do the work. I guess for around that price I may just get the work done and keeping rolling with what I've got. Although I still question the integrity of the parts of the engine that I can't see yet without splitting the case.
_________________
1962 Bug
40 HP Engine
28 Pict Carb rebuilt by Volkzbitz
Big Cap Distributor rebuilt by Tasb

[Steve22]

I agree with Glen above. The self tapping studs are easy to do yourself and cost way less than the case saver route. That being said, this motor will only be good for so long, time to start saving your money for a new one or a rebuild of this one. Also follow the advice of lapping the sealing area of the head to clean up where you had blow-by.
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[Volks Wagen]

[zak414]

I ended up dropping off the engine at a local shop to have them check everything out. Turns out the case is still usable, as well as the crank, and the heads. I'm getting inserts put in on all 16 case studs as well. They said the 3/4 pistons showed signs of overheating and all the rings were showing wear, so I'll end up with all new pistons and cylinders. They'll be redoing all of the valves as well. When all is said and done I'll basically end up with a rebuilt long block and get to take it home to do the final setup. I can't wait to get it back!
_________________
1962 Bug
40 HP Engine
28 Pict Carb rebuilt by Volkzbitz
Big Cap Distributor rebuilt by Tasb

[Wolfgangdieter]

Going that far - I hope they split the case and checked cam/lifters and replaced all bearing. That would be part of having a rebuilt long block. Bearing are not expensive - and labor to split case isn't that much more. Costly down road though to find you have low oil pressure and a spun bearing.
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CMC '57 Porsche Speedster Replica and Dolphin boat tailed full pan VW MOD-T Street Buggy

[zak414]

I knew I'd forget something. They did split the case and they are doing new lifters and bearings as well. They told me from the beginning they'd split the case so I told them to take care of anything and everything while it was opened up. I definitely don't want to have to go through all this again anytime soon.
_________________
1962 Bug
40 HP Engine
28 Pict Carb rebuilt by Volkzbitz
Big Cap Distributor rebuilt by Tasb

[zak414]

So I got the engine back yesterday and was able to get it put in the car today and I'm having issues. It will not idle unless I have the timing way advanced, probably around 12 degrees BTDC at idle with the vacuum line plugged. I have the carb set at the starting point for adjustment, both screws are 3 turns out. Valves are set right, points are set right. I've had this issue before because of a vacuum leak, but I'm set up with all new gaskets and I know my carb is good from before I got the engine rebuilt. Any ideas where I should look to now?
_________________
1962 Bug
40 HP Engine
28 Pict Carb rebuilt by Volkzbitz
Big Cap Distributor rebuilt by Tasb

[Derek Waycaster]

With it running, have you checked for vacuum leaks by spraying carb cleaner or similar around the intake? Manifold gaskets at heads, intake boots, carb base etc?
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[zak414]

I haven't tested that yet. I just had to start work so I'll have to wait until I have some time to check that. One thing I forgot to mention is that I can set the throttle arm on one of higher steps on the cam to keep it idling. At about the third or fourth step it idles but it's only at about 900rpm. The RPMs just drop too low to maintain a steady idle. Also the idle circuit seems to be working fine. I get the click when I turn on the ignition.
_________________
1962 Bug
40 HP Engine
28 Pict Carb rebuilt by Volkzbitz
Big Cap Distributor rebuilt by Tasb

[Derek Waycaster]

The "click" you're hearing is the electromagnetic fuel shut off. You could still have a problem with the idle circuit. Check for a vac leak when you get a chance and let us know.
_________________
61 Turkis 11 window. Rough, patina'd, slammed, 2110, Fun.
68 Westy
71 SC (wrecked) 😢
72 SB stock daily cream puff
79 SB Vert project

[Donnie strickland]

You might also check to be sure they got the distributor drive pinion in correctly.
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71 Elm Green FI A/T Squareback

[zak414]

I did a check for vacuum leaks and have been unable to find anything.

What is really throwing me off is that the car will idle at the correct RPM but only if the timing is way advanced at close to 20 degrees BTDC When it's timed statically at 0 degrees TDC it won't run unless I keep giving it gas.