Base Coat, Clear Coat, Or Single Stage

[Terry Kay]

Where is the Bug parked ?
In your garage or carport I'll bet, and you don't drive it every day where the UV can hammer on it.

And I'll also wager that the buses or vans our looking at are out in the sun 24/7 365 becaue no one has a building to hide them in.

This comparison is a little one sided.

Look.
I've refinished thousands of Semi tractors & trailer's in my day.
The single stage enamel ( Centari for sure ) have fagged out 3-4 time faster than base clear coat, and there is still trucks on the road to this very day that I've base / cleared out there that still look nice after 30 years of constant sun / rain / dirt/ mud / snow / & ice.

I have no idea where you expertice comes from, or what you've done other than look at stuff that was painted going down the road, but you are reporting erronious information not knowing what was done to what & by who.
Now if the vehicles where refinshed with single stage urethane Imron, & chaulked out fast, then I'll really call you a prevaricator.

It ain't gonna happen.
_________________
T.K.

[Wasted youth]

I am not too sure Imron has been available as a off the shelf product for Consumer Joe in a long while. Not sure if it can even be bought in California. But it was certainly some exciting stuff to shoot back in 1988. I'd use it in a heartbeat.

[Terry Kay]

You hit the nail on the head with one word;
"California "

Your screwed & tattooed.

Water soluble paint only.
Real short term refinishing results.
That's too bad.


Anybody with cash in hand can buy any variety of paint they want here.
_________________
T.K.

[bluebus86]

[raoul mitgong]

The guys that painted Groover, both pros, at first were ok with painting single stage. After doing the body work, I think they kind of fell in love with him and suggested to go with base/clear. While they said it would look better (not everyone's perpsective I understand), it was their claim of longevity that made me go base/clear.
Too soon to tell (2 year old paint) and no control in this experiment but I like it.
-d
_________________
84 Westy with a 2.1 (Groover)
86 Tintop Syncro (Crow)
86 Tintop Syncro to Westy project (Tom Servo)
91 Westy (Only the top 12 inches of this van (a burn victim))

[nepawesty]

Single stage.

[Chuey]

This subject is like so many others in that the real, or relevant, answers are based on the quality of the work done.

That is to say that a good job of one type of paint system will be better than a poorly applied job of that same paint job and, likely, better than a poorly done job of any other.

I am saying that the quality of the work is at least as important as the system being used.

The recommendation of the person who is going to do your work is your best indicator. For the sake of your paint job and for the sake of the craftsperson doing the work, go with what that craftsperson likes to apply.

If you can't hang with the system the painter uses, look for one who likes what you want on your van.

Anybody who does work for others understands what I'm writing about here. The worker wants the customer to be happy. She/he knows which system she/he can apply with the best success. To insist on something the painter has not had the best luck with may turn out to be undesirable to both parties.

When I have had cars painted, I wanted to end up with results I was happy with. I also wanted the painter to be happy they had done the work for me. For sure, I've had a mix of results.

Honor the craftsperson and look for a win/win to receive the best work they can deliver.

Chuey

[IdahoDoug]

I simply asked my painter. He said "I'd use PPG single stage". I said "Fine - see you on Friday." Saturday morning we pulled the masking off, and it has been thumbs up, peace signs and waves ever since. Don't overthink it.

DougM
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[Terry Kay]

Single stage PPG or Dupont enamel has hardner in it, which converts it to a urethane skinned product.
Thin skinned as it is--it still has Poly-isocyanates in it, with now has converted it to a urethane skinned refinishing job--with the resins that were brought up somewhere before.
Remember--skinned.
When all is said & done the top layer of the paint has urethane in it.
BUT--as soon as the sun bakes on it it will cook the top layer off of the pigment.
This is why a base coat / clear coat system is totally benificial.
The pigments stay under the clear & will not bake off, as the single stage paint will.
Some enamel paints are better than other's, PPG is one of them--not because of the pigments, but because of the hardener.
Dupont Centari paint is OK--the hardener stinks, is short winded.
I used Dupont for at least 15 years on the trucks, the red ( especially ) cooked off of the fiberglass hoods fast--9-10 months was the limit.
They fagged out---cooked white too quick.
I switched to PPG Delstar, with the DRX-80 hardener, and it lasted a lot longer.
Then I was using up the rest of the Centari I had using the PPG hardener.
Woked well--but acrylic enamel wasn't the answer for longevity.
I then used PPG Deltron which is a full urethane paint, and I got years of service out of it--then PPg discontinued it, I went to Imron for a single stage refinsishing material, and then to PPG base clear coat which lasts for eons longer than any of the above mentioned paints.
The reason?
No UV is allowed to bake off the pigments below it,, plus being a full urethane last forever.

Ask the aircraft mfgs, or Hattera's, Feadship, why they use a full urethane to paint their products.
The answer is simple, and it has nothing to do with resins--it's bullet proof, that's all.
Full Urethane is like spraying a protective rubber bag over whatever your refinishing--and the clear urethane on top of clearcoat is double insurance it will not chaulk out.
If you see clearcoat rolling off it's for one reason.
The applicator didn't do the job properly , or used some low dollar paint.
_________________
T.K.

[djkeev]

Bottom line......

Use which ever paint system that YOU are comfortable with.

Heck, Henry Ford used Quality paint brushes layering on Black Enamel, Japan colors..... Pigments in linseed oil, for years on the Model T.

It took weeks and acres of drying sheds but it worked beautifully!

I wouldn't go this route but many use rustoleum paints, some use textured protective paints, all rolled and brushed on.

Whatever you do, proper preparation and quality product is key.

You don't want a crappy maaco type job where the entire paint process cost less than I can buy quality auto paint for!
Ever seen a basic Maaco single stage a few years later? ...... NOT PRETTY!

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[dobryan]

[bluebus86]

[djkeev]

[Howesight]

I used to do a fair bit of hobbyist painting on my own vehicles years ago. In recent years, I have done a few small repairs on base/clear vehicles, typically doing a whole panel at a time since I have no idea about exactly how a blend job should be done on a base/clear substrate. In the course of doing all this, I did develop pretty good gun skills (for a part-timer), having done entire cars in urethane, including a beetle painted with Glasurit Porsche "Indischrot" (India Red) that had and kept a brilliant shine for years. Great product.

I do agree with TK that the vehicle's sun exposure appears to have a lot to do with clear coat longevity. My 1986 Syncro still has the factory paint on it and it is shiny, if scratched (too much bushwacking). The previous owner was a stickler and garaged the van when it was not being driven, from 1986 to the year I bought it, in 2008. There is no checking, crazing, hazing or peeling of the clear coat.

My 1994 and 1995 Audi cars are a different story. They have rarely been garaged and the factory clear coat shows this in micro-cracking in the clear coat. For what it is worth, in adding to the mystery, my 1994 S4 was absolutely stunning until about two years ago when the first "micro-cracking" started to be observable. Now it looks like shit except when it rains. The point is, how did it stand up so well for 18 years and suddenly go to hell? Don't know and don't really care, since 18 years is pretty good.

I think that the few Vanagons that had factory clear coat failure (such as sheets coming off) were likely "Friday Cars" when a shift change happened right after the base coat was sprayed on but before the clear could go on, thus going past the "open" time for spraying clear, or some other such factory glitch. Remember that the factory paint booths do not now and did not then use the same products that re-finishers get from jobbers. There were all kinds of accelerators, hardeners, etc etc, used about which we will never know the full story, but designed for the faster pace needed in the factory painting process (which typically also included a baking process we can never replicate).

This is why I have my theory about factory paint-shop production line glitches resulting in a handful of clear coat failures from manufacturers that otherwise are known for great/tough base/clear paint jobs.

Having said all that, I am going to ask the Samba paint and body brain trust(with TK a life member) to give their views on what products work best on Vanagons, with specific manufacturers and product numbers, so I can refinish my Westy. I do think that this is on-topic because there is a lot of room for differences as to whether a person wants the very best and is willing to spend the time and money (like me) or is satisfied with something less than perfection and is willing to put up with flaws and/or garage an inferior paint product whenever the vehicle is not being used.

So here are my questions:

Please recommend what you think is the best as follows:

1. What metal prep product for bare metal before primer application:

2. Primer for bare metal portions/panels:

3. Primer-surface for application over scuffed paint and/or body filler:

4. Recommended body filler:

5. Recommended seam sealer and method (ie after or before primer?)

6. Recommended sealer before paint and pre-base sanding finish (400? 600? 800? 1000?)

7. Recommended Base/Clear system (manufacturer and product number)

8. Recommended clear coat mixing ratios, including for final mist coat:

9. To bake or not to bake and temperature/duration.

Now, for the real go-getters, tell us what is not as expensive as the best, but will still do a good job and is relatively user-friendly.

I am not looking for the Rustoleum paint, sand and buff here, as there have been a number of threads showing this labour-intensive "process". Rather, I am looking for the products and methods that a medium to high-end production shop would use as a compromise on quality and price, so, not the Maaco approach. This will also be useful for Vanagon owners wanting to have shops do the work so that the owner can stipulate seam sealant, paint make and grade, etc.
_________________
'86 Syncro Westy SVX

[BavarianWrench]

That's one big green M&M. I love it. I don't believe there is a right or wrong here. It is important to know your desired result, options and compromises. Your feedback has opened my eyes to a few factors that I was unaware of. I thank everybody for chiming in. The color I'm going with, and how I will use the van, I'm leaning heavily towards single stage. I need to look into the durability of the paint on a Westfalia pop top that will live in Denver sun and never be garaged. What additives and paint manufactures would you recommend for the Van that includes a fiberglass top?

[Terry Kay]

Pop top paint is entirely a separate issue.
It's been covered here too many times to count.

Petit, Interlux, Awl Grip, or Imron single stage urethane.

Do a subject search for the results.
_________________
T.K.

[Terry Kay]

Pop top paint is entirely a separate issue.
It's been covered here too many times to count.

Petit, Interlux, Awl Grip, or Imron single stage urethane.
_________________
T.K.

[BavarianWrench]

Terry, Thanks, I've got the direction to research it now.
I do appreciate everybody's input.

[djkeev]

[BavarianWrench]

Dave
Again thanks, I'm not painting the van. The last van I had painted with a painter that is no longer around. I made it clear, an extra couple of hundred on materials was not an issue. I wanted longevity. This is what I got. I can not tell you what he used or how it was done. I didnt pay close attention and trusted him. My old 1973 2002 he painted prior to the van still looks great.

I post the photo not to knock clear coat. I know it was a quality issue with my painters material choice or prep? I love that color. It worked well in the woods blending in. It was not a party foul not painting the Interior. The view out the A pillars was not a glaring conflict. I did not have the interior A pilars painted. I had the door jams and exterior done. It looked great. It was a metalic, needing clear, and I liked clear on it. I know of many cars that have many successful years of clear over repairs and complete paint jobs. Some thing was not right on my job? This time I want to have a conversation based on some knowledge and you guys have helped thanks. I am going with a solid non metalic paint. I'm going single stage not because I think negatively about clear but because I want that old school feel and look of single stage in a solid blue. I will pick a paint product that will hold color and work on the top as well as the sheet metal. When I make my final decision I'll post it. When it is painted I'll post it two. I'm a few months away from paint.