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3nero
Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2008
Posts: 171
Location: Dublin ,Ireland
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 Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:27 am Post subject: Clutch master part number |
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A friend of mine just found a stack of type 4 bits in among a lot of parts he bought from a closed vw dealership. In the pile are a few Master cylinders. I need a new one for my car but he needs to know the part number to see if he has the right one. My cylinder is all crusty and i can't see any numbers on it, i've done a search through the archives here but still can't find the number i need. The car is a 1974 412LS right hand drive (if that makes any difference).
It's a daily driver so i don't want to go pulling out the cylinder just to find a number  |
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Lahti411
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005
Posts: 223
Location: Lahti, Finland
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:39 am Post subject: |
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Clutch master cylinder part numbers:
411 721 405 C for LHD cars
412 721 405 B for RHD cars
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My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:20 am Post subject: |
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Also, if the cylinder is not pitted you can rebuild your cylinder by taking the seals and brass flap valves out of the outer piston unit of a FAG type 3 brake master cylinder (if you have an FAG clutch master cylinder) or from an ATR type 3 brake master if you have an ATE clutch master.
You can also use the seals and flap valves from a vanagon clutch master.
In no cases can you swap pistons from any other cylinder into yours. Only the seals. Ray |
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3nero
Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2008
Posts: 171
Location: Dublin ,Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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cool, thanks guys
I can send on the number now and hope a new cylinder turns up in the post  |
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Lahti411
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005
Posts: 223
Location: Lahti, Finland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 1:03 am Post subject: |
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I just realized something: I don't think that vw part number i gave you has been stamped on the master cylinder. I think there are only F.A.G. or Ate numbers on the mc. So, if your friend has just a pile of mc's he won't find any vw part numbers from those.
I'm going to my garage/storage this evening and if i just remember, i'll check those fag/Ate numbers from the spare parts i have.
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My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:14 am Post subject: |
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| You don't really need part #'s. The type 4 master cylinder is quite unique. If it looks like the one in the picture....thats it. I have never seen another one remotely cose to it in configuration. Ray |
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Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 783
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Also, if the cylinder is not pitted you can rebuild your cylinder by taking the seals and brass flap valves out of the outer piston unit of a FAG type 3 brake master cylinder (if you have an FAG clutch master cylinder) or from an ATR type 3 brake master if you have an ATE clutch master.
You can also use the seals and flap valves from a vanagon clutch master.
In no cases can you swap pistons from any other cylinder into yours. Only the seals. Ray |
Does it matter if the seals are from a type3 single or dual circuit master cylinder?
Also, have anyone found a good internet source for these seals, probably a type 3 brake cylinder rebuild kit?
/Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver 
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold 
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| Lars S wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Also, if the cylinder is not pitted you can rebuild your cylinder by taking the seals and brass flap valves out of the outer piston unit of a FAG type 3 brake master cylinder (if you have an FAG clutch master cylinder) or from an ATR type 3 brake master if you have an ATE clutch master.
You can also use the seals and flap valves from a vanagon clutch master.
In no cases can you swap pistons from any other cylinder into yours. Only the seals. Ray |
Does it matter if the seals are from a type3 single or dual circuit master cylinder?
Also, have anyone found a good internet source for these seals, probably a type 3 brake cylinder rebuild kit?
/Lars S |
No it can be single or dual but it must be the outer piston of the dual, becausd it requires the shaft seal.
In the US rockauto has type 3 dual circuit master cylinder kits for about $25. Ray |
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Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 783
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
....You can also use the seals and flap valves from a vanagon clutch master.
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Thanks Ray!
From which generation vanagon do you believe the seals will fit? Found this for a "T3" vanagon:
http://www.vw-t3-bus-shop.de/en/reparatursatz-kupplungsnehmerzylinder-hersteller-ate
/Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:39 am Post subject: |
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That picture of that kit.....appears to be missing a seal!
I have used seals from 80 to 84.....without problem. I believe they are all the same bore size. You can also use the entire vanagon cylinder by bolting it to a piece of angle iron and drilling the mounting holes for the pedal cluster in the angle iron.
I have done this as well quite a while ago. I removed the modification after I realized I could just rebuild the stock cylinder with seals from a type 3 master cylinder kit as long as I used seals from the same brand of cylinder or from a Schafer universal kit. Ray |
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sergio92626
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2009
Posts: 2
Location: COsta Mesa, CA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Help: what is a FAG Type 3 or ATR Type 3? I have a 1973 VW412 and the clutch master cylinder is leaking badly. The repair kits mentioned above sound what I need. What specifically do I need to buy from ROCKAUTO? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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You need to buy a master cylinder rebuild kit for a 1972 or 1973 VW type 3. When it comes, take all of the seals and the new boot and wnap ring and the brass flap valves......if ut comes with pistons....throw the metal pistons away. They do not fit in type 4 because the pistkn spacing is different.
Lap you cylinder with 400 grit wrapped around a stick with brake fluid if you don't have a 3/4" or 19mm brush hone. Then lap again with 800 or better. Then find a nylon bottle brush and clean the heck out of it in the hottest water you can with dishwashing soap. Be sure to dry it fast and well and assemble with brake paste or brake fluid immediately
If you use brake fluid...assemble within about 2 days. Ray |
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bradself
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2013
Posts: 167
Location: SF, CA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:51 am Post subject: |
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So the brake master and clutch master seals are interchangeable?
A note: there are no brass flap valves in the RockAuto T3 kit, those pistons do not have them. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| bradself wrote: |
So the brake master and clutch master seals are interchangeable?
A note: there are no brass flap valves in the RockAuto T3 kit, those pistons do not have them. |
They are supposed to have them. If you have compensation ports under the cups....the little hole drillings.....they will not seal when you put pressure on the brake...causing slow bypass. It would also be a bitch to bleed.
If you get a kit from them missing those parts....contact them. If you look in the type 3 Bentley at the schematic you will not that the brass flap valves are there.
Typically within the brand types...FAG and ATE....the seals in the clutch and brake master are interchangeable.
The issue I found long ago and its only a slight issue if your cylinder bore is worn so its close to the max diameter....is that the inner bore against the piston....in the seals.....and the exact thickness or height of FAG and ATE seals....is very very slightly different.
If the cylinder is badly worn it can make for slightly less sealing quality because it allows a bit of seal flutter. I cannot remember if its FAG seals in ATE bores or vice versa that caused this problem.
However....in Shaffer kits...the seals are very slightly different and made to be universal.
Overall I have never had any serious problems swapping the seals into any make or model between FAG and ATE. Ray |
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