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KTPhil 
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34014
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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 Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Those are 12V. |
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KTPhil
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34014
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:37 am Post subject: |
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Yes, that's why my suggestion above read:
| KTPhil wrote: |
| Make sure the three wires are in the correct pin sockets. |
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onetuza
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Joined: June 20, 2012
Posts: 579
Location: Sebastian, FL
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, admittedly I am a complete novice electrically, but is the socket diagram in the referenced thread the same for both headlights, brown on the left, white on the right? This makes sense to me.
When I look at the wiring diagram below, the wires seem to be mirrored left to right. This doesn't make sense to me.
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Not screaming, like the other passengers in his car! |
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KTPhil
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Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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They are mirrored only to make the circuit path clearer. Those are schematics show some similarity to actual installation orientation, but the latter is not 100%.
You also show the European diagram with the separate bulb and parking lamp in the housing. The USA models are not wired that way.
Looking at the back (wire side) of the headlamp connector:
Colors are not VW standard in the diagram above, but are as follows:
Low Beam - Yellow
High Beam - White
Ground (common) - Brown
The bucket grounds through its mounting screw. |
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Abscate
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Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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As stated above, the physical positions on those wiring diagrams are not matched to the actual car, they reflect the current paths only.
On the later cars the terminals are marked with the numbers corresponding to the terminal numbers on the diagrams
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onetuza
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Joined: June 20, 2012
Posts: 579
Location: Sebastian, FL
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:30 am Post subject: |
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OK,so now I'm totally getting confused. You say the wiring is different, but the diagrams appear the same to me.
In both, if looking towards the front of the car from behind the socket, white high beam is on the right, yellow low beam on top, brown common on left.
Be that as it may, I may have found a more disturbing situation? I pulled the wiring cover in the trunk and I'll be damned if I can find anything that looks like a headlight high/low beam relay. Is it located somewhere else? Did PO who restored car and converted to 12V leave it off?
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When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather . . . .
Not screaming, like the other passengers in his car! |
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KTPhil
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34014
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| onetuza wrote: |
OK,so now I'm totally getting confused. You say the wiring is different, but the diagrams appear the same to me.
In both, if looking towards the front of the car from behind the socket, white high beam is on the right, yellow low beam on top, brown common on left.
Be that as it may, I may have found a more disturbing situation? I pulled the wiring cover in the trunk and I'll be damned if I can find anything that looks like a headlight high/low beam relay. Is it located somewhere else? Did PO who restored car and converted to 12V leave it off? |
In '65 VW used the foot switch. Relays weren't used until '66.
Again, do NOT try to use the wiring diagram to get the pinout geometry right! Use the diagram I copied showing the back of the socket. |
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onetuza
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Joined: June 20, 2012
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Location: Sebastian, FL
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, good information, but did you read what I said? Both diagrams are the same.
Also I checked one of the buckets and it all looks like original wiring but the left side and top both look yellow to me and the right looks red, off of which comes a brownish wire going to the parking light.
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When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather . . . .
Not screaming, like the other passengers in his car! |
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KTPhil
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34014
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| onetuza wrote: |
| Thanks, good information, but did you read what I said? Both diagrams are the same. |
No they are not.
One is wired for the European bulb system with built-in parking lamp; the other is the USA style sealed beam with the separate parking bulb in the bucket.
The bulb pinouts are the same, but the wiring coming out of the connector is different.
I've posted it before, but there is no substitute for checking the actual wiring with a VOM and with the USA wiring diagram. |
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onetuza
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Joined: June 20, 2012
Posts: 579
Location: Sebastian, FL
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 7:30 am Post subject: |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| onetuza wrote: |
| Thanks, good information, but did you read what I said? Both diagrams are the same. |
No they are not.
One is wired for the European bulb system with built-in parking lamp; the other is the USA style sealed beam with the separate parking bulb in the bucket.
The bulb pinouts are the same, but the wiring coming out of the connector is different.
I've posted it before, but there is no substitute for checking the actual wiring with a VOM and with the USA wiring diagram. |
Is it me? I still say they are.
Here's the first image, from behind the lamp, thus looking at the wires as they exit the socket, yellow low beam on top, brown ground on left, white high beam on right.
Here is second image, looking at the wires as they exit the socket, *yellow low beam on top, *brown ground on left, *white high beam on right:
*Low Beam - Yellow
*High Beam - White
*Ground (common) - Brown
There is no difference.
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When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather . . . .
Not screaming, like the other passengers in his car! |
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:46 am Post subject: |
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Had same headlight wiring mix up in our 1961, so both headlights had both filaments trying to light up at same time, resulting in very dim lights.
Clean grounds and all wiring connections are a must. Applying dielectric grease to each connection will help keep oxygen and thusly corrosion away for much longer.
Checking for voltage drops along the way will help to find any problem areas. Headlight switch and fuse box need to have internal connections soldered. Use factory crimped on terminals for gas tight connection to each wire end, instead of those cheapy terminals that allow corrosion to get in there.
Soldering info.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598534&highlight=fuse+box+soldering
Crimping tool.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=338938&highlight=uninsulated+crimper
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KTPhil
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34014
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| onetuza wrote: |
Is it me? I still say they are.
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Yes, it's you. We are talking about the VW wiring diagrams, not your non-VW pinout diagrams. I posted following your asking about the left and right side of the VW diagrams being different.
Just a suggestion: Don't attempt to belittle those who are more knowledgeable and are just trying to help you for free. |
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onetuza
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Joined: June 20, 2012
Posts: 579
Location: Sebastian, FL
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:59 am Post subject: |
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Back to the sockets. As I said earlier. I checked one of the buckets and it all looks like original wiring but the left side and top both look yellow to me and the right looks red, off of which comes a brownish wire going to the parking light. (Looking at back of connector as wires come at you.)
This appears to be opposite of both images.
Can I ask this, with the headlamps removed, if I turn on the headlights and test the three different plug points, grounding to the body, the true ground should show nothing and the other two would show hot, depending on position of foot switch, right?
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When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather . . . .
Not screaming, like the other passengers in his car! |
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KTPhil
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34014
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| onetuza wrote: |
Back to the sockets. As I said earlier. I checked one of the buckets and it all looks like original wiring but the left side and top both look yellow to me and the right looks red, off of which comes a brownish wire going to the parking light. (Looking at back of connector as wires come at you.)
This appears to be opposite of both images.
Can I ask this, with the headlamps removed, if I turn on the headlights and test the three different plug points, grounding to the body, the true ground should show nothing and the other two would show hot, depending on position of foot switch, right? |
Yes, this method will remove the filaments from the circuit; if the plug is miswired, the bulb filaments will cause erroneous readings and of course odd operation.
Original wiring is always per the colors of the VW wiring diagrams. If the colors don't match, it has been worked on by a prior owner (PO) and we all know how THAT often works out...
Best bet in that case is to trace the (helpfully short) wires under the hood and cardboard liners, and see that the circuits match the diagram. Common hint: take the wiring diagram file to kinkos on a thumb drive, and have them print it large and laminate it. That way you can take notes and mark off each checked wire with a dry-erase marker. Makes it foolproof. |
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onetuza
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Location: Sebastian, FL
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Probably shouldn't add this interim post. I don't have time to check things out more thoroughly till this Sunday. but I did have the right side bucket out and tried a couple of tests. (The left headlight was still connected)
I found that the right side is ground (looking at back of plug) no current to it on low or high.
The curious thing is that on high beam, I was getting juice to both top and left side.
With the switch on high beam, I ran a wire from the right side of the plug to the right side of the disconnected headlamp and then ran one from the headlamp left side, first to the top and then to the left side of the plug.
The top did nothing, the left lit up the high beam.
Clearly something is ficacta and I'm in over my amateur head.
Will no doubt need professional help with this one.
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When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather . . . .
Not screaming, like the other passengers in his car! |
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KTPhil
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34014
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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Since the headlight bucket mounting screw is the ground path, when you experiment with jumpers and such on a headlamp assembly that is unmounted, the current will find other ground paths, like through other filaments or even other bulbs. This might explain your odd test results.
These cars have VERY simple and short wiring. No professional help needed, this is child's play. Just take the suggestion to print out the wiring diagram large, laminate it, and check off each wire and terminal one by one to see it is in the right place. It will lake less than an hour! |
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onetuza
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Posts: 579
Location: Sebastian, FL
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
Since the headlight bucket mounting screw is the ground path, when you experiment with jumpers and such on a headlamp assembly that is unmounted, the current will find other ground paths, like through other filaments or even other bulbs. This might explain your odd test results.
These cars have VERY simple and short wiring. No professional help needed, this is child's play. Just take the suggestion to print out the wiring diagram large, laminate it, and check off each wire and terminal one by one to see it is in the right place. It will lake less than an hour! |
I appreciate your vote of confidence. In two years I've learned a lot from TheSamba. I've managed to install a back up light and fog lights including a relay by following the information. This seems a little beyond me. Remember as I posted earlier, the wires at the bucket, while they all have some kind of crusty brownish tan on them, where they are cleaned, two of them look white and the one that is supposed to be brown and seems to be the ground is red about an inch from the socket. If I'm trying to trace wires based on their color this would defeat that.
Furthermore I'm confused because you say the bucket is the ground. Why then would there be a ground wire on each side, in the trunk, screwed to the body of the car and a ground wire running to the socket why would the bucket need to be ground?  You see what you're dealing with?
I think what I'll do Sunday is check those ground wires in the trunk, check both buckets again and clean all of the connections at the fuse block. I assume it's best to disconnect the battery?
If I don't find anything I guess I'll make an appointment with my mechanic.
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When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather . . . .
Not screaming, like the other passengers in his car! |
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Early VWs used the headlight screw to ground the headlight assembly. Later due to problems VW added a brown ground wire. Had same problem with our 1960 walk thru panel camper conversion, and added in ground wires.
As to your wiring problem, do not just jump back to the fuse box to check the wires. Instead follow the wiring bundle from the headlight back toward the fuse box. Look for any signs that the bundle cover has been disturbed. The DPO could have cut the plastic cover a few inches upstream, to cut and connected in a new wire of the wrong color. Electrical tape was never used at the factory, so if you see any it was added later.
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KTPhil
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Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| onetuza wrote: |
I appreciate your vote of confidence. In two years I've learned a lot from TheSamba. I've managed to install a back up light and fog lights including a relay by following the information. This seems a little beyond me. Remember as I posted earlier, the wires at the bucket, while they all have some kind of crusty brownish tan on them, where they are cleaned, two of them look white and the one that is supposed to be brown and seems to be the ground is red about an inch from the socket. If I'm trying to trace wires based on their color this would defeat that.
Furthermore I'm confused because you say the bucket is the ground. Why then would there be a ground wire on each side, in the trunk, screwed to the body of the car and a ground wire running to the socket why would the bucket need to be ground? You see what you're dealing with?
I think what I'll do Sunday is check those ground wires in the trunk, check both buckets again and clean all of the connections at the fuse block. I assume it's best to disconnect the battery?
If I don't find anything I guess I'll make an appointment with my mechanic. |
At least since this job is simple a shop shouldn't ream you too hard on the bill. But give it a go first.
You are dealing with the most common and vexing of "Old VW Problems": prior owner hacks! Wire colors get ignored, "better ideas" get put into place that undermine the integrity of the original design, and some just plain bonehead moves. Sounds like someone miswired the car and now you have to undo it. But you can get there!
Some years had the extra ground wire, some didn't. To be clear, they all have a ground wire in the 3-wire headlamp socket, but WHERE that wire goes is variable. Stock for '65, I believe it just went to the parking lamp bulb, so the main ground is still through the main mounting screw at the bottom of the assembly. But that's been a few years and I could be wrong.
Do you have a VOM? If so, unplug the wires from the lamps to the fusebox (in the diagram, two whites and two yellows) on both bulb and fusebox ends, and test for continuity from one end to the other. Label them WHITE or YELLOW for how the original wiring was supposed to be at the SOCKET end. Then compare to the actual wire colors-- see if a simple swap sets them right, or maybe they were replaced and random now.
Now check for proper foot switch operation. On the top end of the fusebox are the white and yellow wires. Check for alternating power (hi/lo) as you operate the foot switch.
With the wires right at the bulb end, connect the pairs to the fusebox per your labels, and install the assembly on the fender, cleaning the screw and fender nut for good contact. It will almost certainly work now. |
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onetuza
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Location: Sebastian, FL
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:14 am Post subject: |
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Again, I'm not working on this till Sunday, but a couple of things I learned in the meantime.
1. I researched online and found information that says the left prong of the headlamp is the ground.
2. A car guy at a car show told me to check the resistance across the various prongs with a multi-meter set to ohms. He said I should get some sort of reading in each case, but when I get one that is roughly double the others, the third one is the ground.
Can't wait to check, but so far it's looking to me like the ground and high beam wires are reversed, at least on the bucket I had opened.
T.B.C. . . . .
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When I die, I want to go peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather . . . .
Not screaming, like the other passengers in his car! |
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