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Pbotsonis
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2008
Posts: 506
Location: Parker, Colorado
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 Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:21 pm Post subject: In my opinion it's a SCAM |
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Hey Guys,
Just wanted to give everyone a quick heads up.
I recently purchased these two manuals on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/181555998736
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-THING-Workshop-Manual-F...1638848946
No where on the listing does it say that it is a copy of an original manual and now I'm having trouble getting my refund (after I have already shipped the manuals back to him).
I don't want to bash the seller, I just want to make everyone aware in case someone else was looking in to it. |
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77kafer
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2008
Posts: 823
Location: New Windsor, NY
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Pbotsonis, you are correct those are reprints.
The first one when new was only available on a microfiche, it is nice to have (and the only way to actually get one) on a printed copy page by page.
The second one is a "workshop" manual. Again probably not available new anymore.
I still have the microfiche of the first one.
_________________
Supposed to be 77käfer, but there are no umlauts on an american keyboard
Overheard on 27 June 07, one lady to another when they saw my Harli in a parking lot at West Point, "maybe he found it on the clearance aisle at the Volkswagen dealer" |
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waxhead
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2004
Posts: 946
Location: Philly 'burbs
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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You have good reason to bash the seller, especially if he is refusing to refund you your money. $90 is a lot of money for a reprint. He describes it as 'highly collectable' and 'rare' as if it were an original manual. Totally deceptive. 
Let us know how it plays out.
_________________
Mike B. |
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germanbilly
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2013
Posts: 378
Location: Victorville
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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Go to paypal and have them handle it.
GB |
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Pbotsonis
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2008
Posts: 506
Location: Parker, Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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So here's the full story...
I purchased the manuals (the $90 one and the $40 one) on January 12th and they arrived on the 17th. I contacted him that night and told him that I as very unhappy with this purchase. This is the response I got:
"I am sorry you are displeased with your manual.
Please send them back immediately! Have it in the mail tomorrow morning and upload tracking.
No one has ever complained and I normally do NOT refund on printed material.
The original manual copy which is here is not an excellent copy to begin with. This is a scanned copy done at a high end printing shop. The only difference is there are no grease smudges and the paper is a better pound quality. I also add the better notebook that is wipe able.
Print is identical to it's original counterpart.
I received the original with the purchase of my 'Thing' over 30 years ago, and feel blessed to be able to share it to other fellow 'Thing' owners.
I am sorry you are disappointed, but I have no problem receiving it back and refunding you as per my refund policy (obviously minus the fact that I do not accept printed material back). I will in this instance.
This is something most enjoy and are happy to get due to it's scarcity"
I sent them out the next day (Sunday via the postoffice machine), then immediately sent him a tracking number.
The tracking number indicated that the item was delivered on Friday, but the seller said that the Post Office didn't have any mail for him. Finally today he refunds my money minus 10% and minus the shipping he paid to get it to me.
I was furious when I found this out and immediately opened a case. I generally try to give people the benefit of the doubt and that's why I waited so long.
As of right now I'm out a little over twenty bucks between the money the seller is holding and the money I had to pay to ship it back.
I can have eBay step in on the 2nd. |
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GI Joe
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2005
Posts: 2012
Location: Athens, TN
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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I had a similar situation, minus the return..from a different seller/vehicle.. Advertised as a "factory service manual" on CD...
When arrived, it was a Haynes manual, on CD..... nowhere near the same as a factory manual.. In my instance, it was only $5, so my request was for them to word their ad properly as to not mislead... They complied, also well...
Now, $130 is pretty steep, although, you are getting fresh paper, with the Exact same info as the original.... Was the print scewed, smudged, or anything any way illegible? We're you buying this as a "collectible", to use in a display?
I agree they should specify it's a reprint, and I'd imagine a price adjustment for you would have sufficed... Maybe 50% value for a reprint(?)...
On the return, he did state he would override his return policy and accept the printed material back, in accordance with his return policy(which states minus 20% & shipping).. He only retained 10% though...
Sounds like you got a decent solution, given his return policy......
BUT....... He did misrepresent the item in the listing, and did NOt specify the reprint anywhere.....
Sure will be interested to hear the disposition of this case.... 
_________________
'74 Thing, "Our Thing"....
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...p;start=60
'71 Beetle RPU
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8080337#8080337
www.NLEOMF.com
Respect, Honor, Remember |
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Pbotsonis
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2008
Posts: 506
Location: Parker, Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| GI Joe wrote: |
I had a similar situation, minus the return..from a different seller/vehicle.. Advertised as a "factory service manual" on CD...
When arrived, it was a Haynes manual, on CD..... nowhere near the same as a factory manual.. In my instance, it was only $5, so my request was for them to word their ad properly as to not mislead... They complied, also well...
Now, $130 is pretty steep, although, you are getting fresh paper, with the Exact same info as the original.... Was the print scewed, smudged, or anything any way illegible? We're you buying this as a "collectible", to use in a display?
I agree they should specify it's a reprint, and I'd imagine a price adjustment for you would have sufficed... Maybe 50% value for a reprint(?)...
On the return, he did state he would override his return policy and accept the printed material back, in accordance with his return policy(which states minus 20% & shipping).. He only retained 10% though...
Sounds like you got a decent solution, given his return policy......
BUT....... He did misrepresent the item in the listing, and did NOt specify the reprint anywhere.....
Sure will be interested to hear the disposition of this case.... |
Part of the print was unaligned on a few pages.
I did buy it for display purposes.... In my opinion, the factory service manuals are really cool especially when they do have grease smudges on them. I can get copies from people for far less than what I paid for what I thought was an original.
I understand he stated his return policy, but eBay's policy is to describe your listing which is what I feel he did not do. |
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77kafer
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2008
Posts: 823
Location: New Windsor, NY
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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So 3 hours later you decide to tell us "the full story".
I think you got a fair refund considering he usually keeps 20% and in your case he only kept 10%.
Was that a buy it now? If so, he probably had more than one, you should have realized that it was a reprint. When I looked at the pictures in the listing that you posted, I saw right away that they were good copies of a manual, probably not even an original manual. As I said earlier, the parts cataloge was not originally in print form, it was on a microfiche, and the microfiche machine was capable of printing out individual pages.
_________________
Supposed to be 77käfer, but there are no umlauts on an american keyboard
Overheard on 27 June 07, one lady to another when they saw my Harli in a parking lot at West Point, "maybe he found it on the clearance aisle at the Volkswagen dealer" |
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Pbotsonis
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2008
Posts: 506
Location: Parker, Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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| 77kafer wrote: |
| So 3 hours later you decide to tell us "the full story". |
Sorry.... Probably should've put that in the first post. Wasn't trying to hide anything. |
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GI Joe
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2005
Posts: 2012
Location: Athens, TN
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| Pbotsonis wrote: |
... In my opinion, the factory service manuals are really cool especially when they do have grease smudges on them. I can get copies from people for far less than what I paid for what I thought was an original.
I understand he stated his return policy, but eBay's policy is to describe your listing which is what I feel he did not do. |
Agreed on all counts.... I have a few different Factory service manuals in my library, and appreciate the smudges and personal notes from the mechanics!
Most sellers muddy up their listings and bury the "not an original" disclaimer deep.... This was clearly not the case....
Good luck in your pursuit!
_________________
'74 Thing, "Our Thing"....
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...p;start=60
'71 Beetle RPU
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8080337#8080337
www.NLEOMF.com
Respect, Honor, Remember |
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waxhead
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2004
Posts: 946
Location: Philly 'burbs
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| germanbilly wrote: |
Go to paypal and have them handle it.
GB |
In my experience PayPal and/or eBay won't do squat. They are all talk about protecting the buyer, but when it comes down to it, they will usually side with sellers, especially high volume sellers who are putting money in their (eBay's) pocket.
_________________
Mike B. |
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CraigInPA
Samba Member
Joined: March 09, 2011
Posts: 212
Location: Norristown, PA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| waxhead wrote: |
| germanbilly wrote: |
Go to paypal and have them handle it.
GB |
In my experience PayPal and/or eBay won't do squat. They are all talk about protecting the buyer, but when it comes down to it, they will usually side with sellers, especially high volume sellers who are putting money in their (eBay's) pocket. |
My experience has been exactly the opposite. Ebay typically sides with buyers when there is a claim that the item was misrepresented. I've complained 3 times in the last 5 years that the seller sent something that didn't resemble the description and wouldn't take the item back (auction said "no returns"), even when I pointed out that they deliberately mis-described the item. One of those was a technical manual reprint when it was to be an original. One was a book that was supposed to be "excellent" and showed up without the dust jacket and with a hardback cover no longer attached to the pages. The third was a 3 disk DVD set that had 2 disks in it. After the seller denied the return, ebay refunded my payment in full. It might be because these were relatively inexpensive items (under $20), or because I have over 1100 positive feedback since 2008. |
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EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69827
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| CraigInPA wrote: |
| waxhead wrote: |
| germanbilly wrote: |
Go to paypal and have them handle it.
GB |
In my experience PayPal and/or eBay won't do squat. They are all talk about protecting the buyer, but when it comes down to it, they will usually side with sellers, especially high volume sellers who are putting money in their (eBay's) pocket. |
My experience has been exactly the opposite. Ebay typically sides with buyers when there is a claim that the item was misrepresented. I've complained 3 times in the last 5 years that the seller sent something that didn't resemble the description and wouldn't take the item back (auction said "no returns"), even when I pointed out that they deliberately mis-described the item. One of those was a technical manual reprint when it was to be an original. One was a book that was supposed to be "excellent" and showed up without the dust jacket and with a hardback cover no longer attached to the pages. The third was a 3 disk DVD set that had 2 disks in it. After the seller denied the return, ebay refunded my payment in full. It might be because these were relatively inexpensive items (under $20), or because I have over 1100 positive feedback since 2008. |
I agree, I read another Forum about eBay buying and selling and there are constants complaints that eBay will side with the buyer in pretty much every case. To the point where sellers get scammed, like getting boxes returned with dirt in them instead of the product, and they lose out. They basically have to accept a certain loss level as a cost of doing business.
To the OP:
The seller should have told you these were reproduction from the start so in my opinion, you should be getting a full refund of all costs. Not saying they were reproduction/reprints is misleading.
_________________
How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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strelnik
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2010
Posts: 352
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| EverettB wrote: |
| CraigInPA wrote: |
| waxhead wrote: |
| germanbilly wrote: |
Go to paypal and have them handle it.
GB |
In my experience PayPal and/or eBay won't do squat. They are all talk about protecting the buyer, but when it comes down to it, they will usually side with sellers, especially high volume sellers who are putting money in their (eBay's) pocket. |
My experience has been exactly the opposite. Ebay typically sides with buyers when there is a claim that the item was misrepresented. I've complained 3 times in the last 5 years that the seller sent something that didn't resemble the description and wouldn't take the item back (auction said "no returns"), even when I pointed out that they deliberately mis-described the item. One of those was a technical manual reprint when it was to be an original. One was a book that was supposed to be "excellent" and showed up without the dust jacket and with a hardback cover no longer attached to the pages. The third was a 3 disk DVD set that had 2 disks in it. After the seller denied the return, ebay refunded my payment in full. It might be because these were relatively inexpensive items (under $20), or because I have over 1100 positive feedback since 2008. |
I agree, I read another Forum about eBay buying and selling and there are constants complaints that eBay will side with the buyer in pretty much every case. To the point where sellers get scammed, like getting boxes returned with dirt in them instead of the product, and they lose out. They basically have to accept a certain loss level as a cost of doing business.
To the OP:
The seller should have told you these were reproduction from the start so in my opinion, you should be getting a full refund of all costs. Not saying they were reproduction/reprints is misleading. |
In my personal opinion, situations like this are reasons why people should provide copies to the Samba for everything they own, as longas they can do it legally.
This is why I have been spending my spare time translating the friggin' Bundeswehr manual on the 181.
No copyright issues and it will be distributed freely and gratis, the only prohibition is selling it. You can't do that, but you can make a 1,000,000 copies if you want and give them away.
This whole thing reminds me of Linux.
The guy creates Linux and gives it away so that people in poor countries can afford it made the mistake of not forbidding others to copyeright it. So Red Hat Linux made a "version" that they copyrighted after the Linux creator gave it away.
So it goes with our stuff.
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L'audace! L'audace! Toujours l'audace! |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2003
Posts: 510
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:02 pm Post subject: Manual |
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| My experience with Ebay is also the opposite of what you state, both times after a dispute resolution, I got a refund. |
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waxhead
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2004
Posts: 946
Location: Philly 'burbs
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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My experiences were over 5 years ago. It's possible they have changed their policy since then.
_________________
Mike B. |
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Pbotsonis
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2008
Posts: 506
Location: Parker, Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Since we're on the topic... This is the one I bought off of eBay earlier this year.. I know it's not an original but it's really cool!!!
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77kafer
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2008
Posts: 823
Location: New Windsor, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Except for the cover, isn't that pretty much the same as the one that you recently received and sent back? A page by page printed copy of the original parts microfiche.
_________________
Supposed to be 77käfer, but there are no umlauts on an american keyboard
Overheard on 27 June 07, one lady to another when they saw my Harli in a parking lot at West Point, "maybe he found it on the clearance aisle at the Volkswagen dealer" |
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Pbotsonis
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2008
Posts: 506
Location: Parker, Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think so....
Besides this one is older than I am. Haha. |
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77kafer
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2008
Posts: 823
Location: New Windsor, NY
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| Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/71-72-73-74-VW-Thing-Type-...0565667657
So this is the one that you should have bought. Price is a lot better. Oh wait, you already have one.
_________________
Supposed to be 77käfer, but there are no umlauts on an american keyboard
Overheard on 27 June 07, one lady to another when they saw my Harli in a parking lot at West Point, "maybe he found it on the clearance aisle at the Volkswagen dealer" |
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