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Goodhand77
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2013
Posts: 236
Location: Forest Ontario
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 Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:27 am Post subject: 72 westy 1800cc -electronic distributer |
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hello folks
I'm putting together my first rebuild type 4 engine, for my 72 westy,
has anyone used the pertronix -009 style mechanical advance distributer with the flamethrower module its $169 wow, but does it work well ? with its preset curve and advance etc.... and no points required as in further maintenance ,
if it was a gift would it make you smile on this application with the proper ignition coil of course.
and will the work with the with current empi carbs that i have (no vacuum ports on them ) , until i make the purchase of a really good set of dual Kardons,
Get this i spoke with "tim" carb rebuild guy and he didn't suggest running my original carbs even if i paid him to rebuild them cause just doesn't feel they are very friendly , he was not a fan of the type that i have
32-34 PDSIT, i truly appreciated his honesty cause his website is AWSOME!!!!
so looking for some input on these items, but would love to order distributor the proper one today if possible
does anyone have an opinion on the distributor i described compared to the mechanical advance distributor with electronic ignition installed for $99 instead of the $169, i really don't understand the difference sorry
soooooooooooo many options , I'm just looking for simplicity for a daily driver that will have little work to keep maintained if possible
once again thanks sooooo much guys and girls |
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PITApan
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2014
Posts: 1058
Location: Northern Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: 72 westy 1800cc -electronic distributer |
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| Goodhand77 wrote: |
hello folks
I'm putting together my first rebuild type 4 engine, for my 72 westy,
has anyone used the pertronix -009 style mechanical advance distributer with the flamethrower module its $169 wow, but does it work well ? with its preset curve and advance etc.... and no points required as in further maintenance ,
if it was a gift would it make you smile on this application with the proper ignition coil of course.
and will the work with the with current empi carbs that i have (no vacuum ports on them ) , until i make the purchase of a really good set of dual Kardons,
Get this i spoke with "tim" carb rebuild guy and he didn't suggest running my original carbs even if i paid him to rebuild them cause just doesn't feel they are very friendly , he was not a fan of the type that i have
32-34 PDSIT, i truly appreciated his honesty cause his website is AWSOME!!!!
so looking for some input on these items, but would love to order distributor the proper one today if possible
does anyone have an opinion on the distributor i described compared to the mechanical advance distributor with electronic ignition installed for $99 instead of the $169, i really don't understand the difference sorry
soooooooooooo many options , I'm just looking for simplicity for a daily driver that will have little work to keep maintained if possible
once again thanks sooooo much guys and girls |
I'm using a Pertonix II on an SVDA distributor. I have a 009 now and it has a lot of lag. Not a great choice for the street. They were all the rage at one time blah, blah. Methinks their popularity has passed as people discovered they didn't drive well.
You need vacuum ports for the SVDA.
I am running dual IDFs in place of the Weber ICTs I just took off although the ICTs worked well.
Try going through the tech articles on the aircooled.net website. Some of the usual hype but not too bad. |
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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For the life of me I cannot understand why anyone would do a 009 to themselves by choice.
Pure junk. |
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1967250s
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Joined: May 02, 2007
Posts: 2137
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:42 am Post subject: |
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The original carbs are easier to tune than you think, and drive much better with chokes and vacuum distributor. Lots of threads on them. Check Ratwells site. Pertronix is great, tho I don't know if they have a unit for the original distributor.
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'72 Elm Green Deluxe |
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Millennium Falcon
Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2006
Posts: 405
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:26 am Post subject: |
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I would stick with your stock Solex PDSIT carbs, they work great. Nothing wrong with them at all, and you already own them. And avoid the 009 distributor at all cost. I would not put one on my bus if some one paid me. Don't get sucked in by incorrect sale items.
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"Don't worry, she'll hold together . . . You hear me, baby? Hold together!" -Han to the Falcon
1972 White Campmobile
1700 cc Type IV
Dual Solex 34 PDSIT2/3 |
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Goodhand77
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2013
Posts: 236
Location: Forest Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:49 am Post subject: |
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Cool thanks fr the advice wondering does it make a differance running a 009 dist. If it's fully electronic would that work ok? Good , great
I ask just because I own a brand new set of dual carbs aswell that don't have a vacuum port ......
Only reason in leaning that way
Or is the electronic dist just as bad as original 009 |
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Tom Powell
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Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| Goodhand77 wrote: |
| ... Or is the electronic dist just as bad as original 009 |
AFAIK:
Any distributor can be converted to electronic, but some off-the-shelf conversions will not fit some VW distributors. The 009 was designed for an industrial motor application that ran at a constant speed. It may be acceptable for a light weight beetle but not for the heavier bus. The distributor needs to match the carburetor.
I have a 205T, vacuum only advance for my stock '69 camper engine. I bought, and after some modification, installed a Pertronix. After considering that the Pertronix probably did not have the #3 retard, I went back to points and condenser, and spares. The engine runs well and I have a working spare 205T to swap in.
Aloha
tp
Last edited by Tom Powell on Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Goodhand77
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Joined: August 18, 2013
Posts: 236
Location: Forest Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:59 am Post subject: |
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Thank you tom that's very good explanation for understanding purposes not just well this one is better thsn that one , it's funny I'm a deisel mechanic and never never work with spark plugs and distributers etc....
It's all about combustion for me lol
15 years working on schoolbuses , sure is different than aircooled vw's
But I'm trying to wrap my head around all these options |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50332
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| If you bend the centrifugal advance stops on an 009 to limit the advance to 18° you can set the initial timing at around 10-12° BTDC and have full advance of around 28-30° then the 009 should work well enough. A lot of "009" dizzies give way too much advance and thus don't allow you to set the timing even close to being what the engine needs. CIP sells one that they advertize for buses that gives 40° of advance, set at 30° BTDC at full advance this means the timing at idle will be 10° AFTER TDC and you will have a nasty bog trying to get your bus moving. |
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PITApan
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Joined: November 09, 2014
Posts: 1058
Location: Northern Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Goodhand77 wrote: |
Cool thanks fr the advice wondering does it make a differance running a 009 dist. If it's fully electronic would that work ok? Good , great
I ask just because I own a brand new set of dual carbs aswell that don't have a vacuum port ......
Only reason in leaning that way
Or is the electronic dist just as bad as original 009 |
The difference in the distributors is the way they advance the spark. The 009 has a purely mechanical advance with spinning bob-weights and springs. The SVDA has this + a vacuum can adding to the advance.
So the 009 advances by RPM only. The SVDA advances by both RPM and manifold vacuum.
The advance on both can be modified with different springs, restricting the weight travel, etc. You should not need or want to get into this for a stock motor and application.
The electronic trigger vs. the points trigger is a separate issue from the advance. The electronic is zero maintenance and always remains right on tune. Aside from a lube operation it's set and forget. Points require adjustment and replacement.
If the carbs do not have a vacuum port for the distributor, and one cannot be added, then you cannot take advantage of an SVDA distributor. Run an ordinary 009 and be happy. They are known for some lag but so what? It'll still drive OK and once you are up in the RPM band a bit it's the same.
I would approach the project carb-priority rather than distributor-priority. The presence of a vacuum port for the distributor is one thing to consider when choosing carbs but there are many others. So I would start considering the trade-offs there.
A carb which has readily obtainable parts, is well documented and that you can work on yourself is very advantageous. Many have opinions on their favorite and the arguments can go late into the thread. I removed and am selling my ICTs because I really wanted some big Webers, not because they weren't working fine. I wasn't planning to spend any $$ on carbs unless I got into something I really wanted to play with. So I got IDFs.
Be careful on the pertronix. The original one is liable to burn out if the ignition is left on, engine off, or if it is wired backwards for an instant. The pertronix II solved the ignition-left-on issue but is liable to miswiring. The pertronic III resolves all of them, is the most costly. |
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Goodhand77
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Joined: August 18, 2013
Posts: 236
Location: Forest Ontario
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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wow thank you everyone i really appreciate your advice and sharing your struggles and gains in the end !!!
and wow huge huge thx pita pan for taking the time to type out such detailed and understandable info !!!!!
I'm thinking hard about splurging on some Kardons i hear they have lots of parts and vacuum ports and seem to be workable for a guy like myself,
and than i will figure out the distributor after , but wow first i heard about the pertronix issues from one two and three..... thank you
i can't seem to use my original solex cause I'm having trouble finding someone to rebuild the ones i have , a couple builders said they don't like this style /???
and they are possibly difficult to tune
but i can afford the proper set of Kardons i think to hopefully do it right..
sorry to the webber die hards , I'm just not convinced they are what i need at this point
but all the info is truly worth it weight in gold |
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5399
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Goodhand77 wrote: |
i can't seem to use my original solex cause I'm having trouble finding someone to rebuild the ones i have , a couple builders said they don't like this style /??? |
Rebuild them yourself. They are very simple carburetors. You can get new gasket sets for them at auto zone, napa, carpets, etc... Take them 100% apart, the housings in vinegar and use a toothbrush to remove the mineral scale build up. Them soak them in carb cleaner, and blow out the fuel passages. There are several people that post in the classifieds who will rebus the throttle shafts as well.
| Goodhand77 wrote: |
| and they are possibly difficult to tune |
Only to the people who misunderstand them, and they are highly misunderstood carburetors. If you can tune a pict 2, pict 3, and have a basic understanding of how to synchronize dual carburetors, you are golden. The main portion of each carburetor tunes the same way a pict 2 does. They really are dirt simple single barrel carbs with a throttle plate positioner and a volume mixture screw, and the central idle circuit is the same exact thing as the air bypass on a pict 3. There are several good write ups on how to tune them. Amskeptic has a good write up on it here on TheSamba, but I prefer the Bentley manuals way of doing it. I think it is simpler and works just as well from my experience. Once set up they hold a rock solid tuning.
| Goodhand77 wrote: |
but i can afford the proper set of Kardons i think to hopefully do it right. |
Going with those carbs is not right...in my opinion. The dual Solex PDSITs are the right way to do it. VW put a lot of thought into the carburetors and distributors. With a matching DVDA distributor the PDSIT carbs run smooth as butter.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51112
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
| Goodhand77 wrote: |
but i can afford the proper set of Kardons i think to hopefully do it right. |
Going with those carbs is not right...in my opinion. The dual Solex PDSITs are the right way to do it. VW put a lot of thought into the carburetors and distributors. With a matching DVDA distributor the PDSIT carbs run smooth as butter. |
X2, the Kads can be Ok if you spend a sh*tload of time diang them in but they'll still act up when it's cold and usually your mileage suffers all around. Rebush the PDSIT's and enjoy another 35+ years of flawless operation in any weather.
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5399
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
| Goodhand77 wrote: |
but i can afford the proper set of Kardons i think to hopefully do it right. |
Going with those carbs is not right...in my opinion. The dual Solex PDSITs are the right way to do it. VW put a lot of thought into the carburetors and distributors. With a matching DVDA distributor the PDSIT carbs run smooth as butter. |
X2, the Kads can be Ok if you spend a sh*tload of time diang them in but they'll still act up when it's cold and usually your mileage suffers all around. Rebush the PDSIT's and enjoy another 35+ years of flawless operation in any weather. |
X2 
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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PITApan
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Joined: November 09, 2014
Posts: 1058
Location: Northern Colorado
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Vanapplebomb"]
| Goodhand77 wrote: |
/snip VW put a lot of thought into the carburetors and distributors. |
VW put a lot of thought into things like low bidders and political relations between countries and companies. Never assume a component was chosen for solid engineering reasons. Very often engineering gets it's hands tied. |
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Tom Powell
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Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="PITApan"]
| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
| Goodhand77 wrote: |
/snip VW put a lot of thought into the carburetors and distributors. |
VW put a lot of thought into things like low bidders and political relations between countries and companies. Never assume a component was chosen for solid engineering reasons. Very often engineering gets it's hands tied. |
And engineering economics.
My '69 camper OG wiring is like a string of Christmas tree lights.
x meters of wire saved, times x million cars, times x marks per meter = production costs saved = profit
Aloha
tp |
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Vanapplebomb
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Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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If that were the case in this scenario, VW would have never bothered to make very very minor adjustments to carb jetting and distributor advance curves. Heck, the same year of the same engine for manual and auto transmissions even had different jetting and advance curves to best match the application. A lot of thought was put into the fuel and ignition system. No doubt about it.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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PITApan
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Joined: November 09, 2014
Posts: 1058
Location: Northern Colorado
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Vanapplebomb wrote: |
| If that were the case in this scenario, VW would have never bothered to make very very minor adjustments to carb jetting and distributor advance curves. Heck, the same year of the same engine for manual and auto transmissions even had different jetting and advance curves to best match the application. A lot of thought was put into the fuel and ignition system. No doubt about it. |
If you want you product to work, you put the thought into it.
But the argument: " The OEM did it therefore it must be best" does not hold. It was best for them at the time they did it. As I mentioned, there were many constraints on them that we do not have. We can choose carbs that would be far to costly for a production vehicle. Ferrari used Weber IDFs and IDAs on very expensive, very limited production vehicles. VW, no way. Their market wouldn't pay for that. And the carbs weren't made in the motherland to boot. That mattered. But we do not have these constraints. What was "best" for the OEM may or may not be "best" for us. We have options that didn't even exist when these vehicles were built!
When you use a given carb on all your vehicles you always look to tweak them if you can for your next application. You get to buy them in bigger quantities for lower prices, the parts are all over your service network as is the training to work on them. You want to stretch that.
But an OEM doesn't need warranty or recall hassles. They will go for a measure of durability, at least good enough to match the warranty. But the parts on the VW are so old that their remaining lifespan is questionable. Rebuild the OEM carb or go aftermarket? Did VW choose the Solex as a throwaway or for it's high level of rebuildability.? There is no clear-cut answer.
Personally I don't have them or want them, so the point is moot. |
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Vanapplebomb
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Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5399
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 12:52 am Post subject: |
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My argument was not that OEM used it so it must be best. It was that if using the OEM carb, the OEM distributor is best. There is a huge difference between those two statements. They worked very hard to match the two together, and any change is going to affect it negatively, like using an SVDA with the dual PDSIT. Sure you can make it work, but is far from ideal for a number of reasons. The application specific DVDA was matched spot on to those carbs and worked fantastic from the factory. For a stock engine in a stock application, it is almost impossible to go wrong.
If you are building a performance engine, then you may want a different combination, like dual webber IDFs and an SVDA, etc... lots of other proven performance options if that is what you are into, but it sounds like the OP is looking for simplicity and reliability for a daily driver.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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Goodhand77
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Joined: August 18, 2013
Posts: 236
Location: Forest Ontario
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| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:35 am Post subject: |
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apple bomb
you are totally correct looking for simple to install and maintain nothing crazy special but parts availability is aa concern on older carbs?? my old dual solex
can't get some rubber orings etc... I'm hearing
and I'm wondering if technology of today is better ? you would think so but are they just super complicated to tune etc....
buddy says kardons super simple and readably available parts ....
i can rebuild my old carbs i even have the kits its just the bushings are my problem i can't do myself, and should i invest in them to try and bring back to life or invest that money into todays version of those great old stock carbs???
who really knows ?? i sure don't myself
but one thought sorry is you are the first person that has told me to us a dvda dist. ??? people say either use the svda for any carb with vacuum and than the "flatspot " can be eliminated , I'm understanding
or if your running carbs that don't have vacuum ports avail. than than your back to 009 or another type of mechanical style and maybe adjust the best you can but basically learn to live with this flatspot problem??
if its really a problem???
i got a set of brand new 34 empi carbs about 6 months ago before i knew even what i know now , they have no vacuum and the brand new svda dist. i own won't match up with carbs:(
so do i purchase a different dist. or purchase new set of Kardons with vacuum ports, or run my old solex carbs after possible rebuild (not just gasket kit), and use appropriate dist. not sure if thats a fully mechanical or a svda, honestly not sure if old solex has vacuum ports???
if they don't have vacuum ports , thinking just use my new empis???
so wow in a nut shell sooo streesed and moral is don't buy shit!!!!!
before you understand more than i know thats for sure . just hoping that some of my extra parts might use to play with my 1972 beetle stock engine. it has flatspot for sure!!!! never understood this just thought it was an engine or clutch problem when trying to pull away from stop signs almost wants to stall , beautiful car but drives me crazy when it does this
anyways sorry not quite sure about the dvda dist. like stated earlier , first time some has suggested it .... |
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