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jester2000 Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2011 Posts: 7 Location: Santa Barbara, California
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Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:04 pm Post subject: House battery issue in my 84' solarized westy |
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Greetings! I would REALLY love some input from folks out there that are familiar with deep-cycle house batteries, and solar panel systems.
I bought a new deep-cycle battery ('SuperStart' - Reserve Cap: 180) from O'Reillys auto parts in January. After only about 2 months, I was surprised how quickly it drops in voltage --- Using just my Engel Fridge and 12v LED 5-meter lighting strip (http://tinyurl.com/kk3xyew). the LEDs can consume up to 36W with the brightest white, but I usually have it dimmed down and on amber color. At night the battery drops to around 9 volts or even lower to 7 volts -- in which case the LED lights only work as a ultra-dimmed Red, and often i can hear the Engel fridge struggling to run because its not getting enough power.
I have tried to get the battery replaced at O'Reillys twice. They have tested the battery and say its still good, however it is on its last quarter of life.
Am I just dealing with having an inferior battery? Or maybe there is something else going on...
Originally I put in the whole system in Sept 2011, and I recall the lights and fridge being able to work properly for a couple days without the panel getting any sun, and without moving the vehicle. That was with the same type of O'Reilly deep-cycle battery...
I really appreciate you help!!!
Sincerely, Jess
I have included a drawing with diagram showing my basic solar and electrical set-up.
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singler3360 Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 1191 Location: Corvallis, Oregon
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Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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It sounds like you have a major parasitic draw on your house batt. I don't recall exact values, but somewhere in the 11.x volt range a battery is considered 0% functional. If you are reading 7-9 volts, then I don't see how the battery can be ok.
Gurus? |
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ezmc321 Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2011 Posts: 15 Location: Moab, UT
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Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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Thats a quick way to kill a battery. Isolate the battery after trickle charging it full again and see what it does. How much solar? |
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PDXWesty Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2006 Posts: 6235 Location: Portland OR
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Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like you perhaps aren't starting out with a full charge to begin with. Put your battery on a 10 amp charger for 24 hours before you leave next time and see what happens. A few hours drive is not enough to get a full charge. Also check your charge controller to make sure it is still functional and allowing full output.
By the way, the 180 (RC) is equivilent to about 75 amp-hours capacity. You can read what these ratings mean here: http://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/battery-basics.html _________________ 89 Westy 2.1 Auto |
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nocreditnodebt Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2012 Posts: 332 Location: Socal
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Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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A battery can handle being drawn below 10.5 volts perhaps once or twice and recover only if immediately and fully recharged.
It is inconceivable how this battery can test OK.
Oreillys is giving you the run around. Take it to anyplace else that is not warrantying it and it will fail for sure.
You should get a clamp on Ammeter and learn how to use it.
http://www.amazon.com/MASTECH-MS2108A-Current-Clam...E48ES7KXWB
Also next time, try getting a Flooded deep cycle battery from Trojan or USbattery or Crown
o4 Eastpenn Deka. Check for parasitic draws and make sure to fully recharge the battery after any depletion. Do not rely on the alternator to do it. 135w of solar should be able to do it easily when unloaded, so I think something is seriously wrong in your electrical system.
I wonder who makes oreilley's dc battery. I imagine they do not move many deep cycle batteries. batteries can self discharge 15% a month, once they get under 80% charged, they are losing capacity. The longer they stay below 80% and the lower they go below 80%, the faster they lose capacity and this for the most part, is unrecoverable. |
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jester2000 Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2011 Posts: 7 Location: Santa Barbara, California
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Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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Well it sounds like this battery is pretty toasted --- It has been under 9 volts many, many times.
I don't rely on the alternator to charge it -- It gets charged to the max with the big 135watt panel, or i charge it with a trickle charger. Also O'Reilly's says they charge it fully for the test so its returned to me 'full'.
Hmmm. Any tips for me on how to locate parasitic draw?
ezmc321 -- im unsure what you mean. just periodically check voltage of the full, unhooked/isolated battery? ---"How much solar?"-- ?
FYI PDXWesty, I'm visiting my sister in Portland. do you recommend a place here to buy a Flooded deep cycle battery?
Thanks for the help guys -- this issue has been really frustrating for me.
-Jess |
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nocreditnodebt Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2012 Posts: 332 Location: Socal
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Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:24 am Post subject: |
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A Trickle charger is generally under 2 amps.
If a healthy 75 amp hour battery is fully depleted to 10.5v, and placed on the 2 amp charger, then it would, in theory take 37.5 hours to fully recharge.
But it is not quite that simple as there will be amp tapering occurring as the battery gets above a certain level of charge, and sometimes batteries need charging voltages well above the standard 14.4v to actually reach maximum energy density. Some 'trickle' chargers are really float chargers which only output 13.2 volts. It can take a week or more at 13.2 volts to fully charge a battery
Low and Slow trickle chargers are fine and dandy when you have a week to plug into the grid, but there seems to be this attitude that 'trickle' equals magical battery restoration, when it is far more likely a higher rate charger has a way better chance to dissolve the sulfate back into the electrolyte and restore some measure of capacity.
But not on a battery that has been drawn down to 7 volts many many times.
Truly Fully charging a depleted battery takes many many hours. as squeezing in that last 5% takes forever no matter how big and shiny the alternator is, no matter the fluffy and awe inspiring marketing mumbo jumbo in the documentation of that 250$ 8 stage charger.
You need tools to check for a parasitic draw. Plenty of U tube videos on the subject. |
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Dampcamper Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2013 Posts: 788 Location: Rainy Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:03 am Post subject: If you wanna learn about deep-cycle batteries ... |
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borrow or buy a copy of this excellent book by Nigel Calder:
Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual: How to Maintain, Repair, and Improve Your Boat's Essential Systems
(a link to Amazon, no business relation here, just one place to buy it):
http://www.amazon.com/Boatowners-Mechanical-Electrical-Manual-Essential/dp/0071432388
The author goes over a lot about the care and feeding (and death and destruction) of deep-cycle batteries. He talks about charging regimens and battery life. The book is written for boats but the battery stuff is all directly related to an aux system in a car. I recommend the 3rd edition as it is updated in this area (older editions may be cheaper but not as useful). |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22568 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:36 am Post subject: |
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As a cruising sailor, we derate solar panels by 4x to roughly estimate their effective charge rate.
Condensing my experience here into a Cliffs notes version
This comes from two factors
1 The panel rating is for a clean, dry, panel at some rated room temperature. Cut rating by a factor of 2x for real world
2 Unless you position your panel to face the sun during the day, its efficiency drops as cos (theta) where theta is the actual angle to the optimal angle. Another SWAG derating factor of 2x..
3 4x = 2x times 2x...
So, if your calculated load is 100 watts, you need a 400 watt panel to keep up with the load.
...and finally, a typical lead acid battery has about 1000 Watthours of energy it it. If you charge at 100 Watts, though, it will take about 30 hours to reach full charge, not the 10 hours you might think by simple division.
Charging is not linear over time. _________________ .ssS! |
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Honey Samba Member
Joined: April 26, 2011 Posts: 4
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:00 am Post subject: |
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The cruising sailor is correct. I was a cruising sailor for 9 yrs. We depended on our batteries for everything all year long. We were at anchor as much as possible so the grid was seldom used. When a battery is discharged to the 7 to 9 volt level damage is done to the battery that is probably not recoverable. If you can get your hands on a charger that has a conditioning function then condition the battery. When a battery is discharged some sulfate is deposited in the lead and when it is discharged below 11.5 to 12 volts much sulfateting occurs. This sulfur in the lead greatly reduces the capacity of the battery. Conditioning the battery for a few hours (after fully charging the battery then bring it up to 15.5 to 16 volts and hold it there for a few hours will remove some of the sulphur). Be sure to remove the caps and keep water in them and keep flame and sparks away during this procedure. The house battery holder under the drivers seat only holds a small battery. The battery GoWesty sells is 44 amp. hours. I have one of these in an 85 van. In our 84 I have three 22 amp. hr. wheel chair batteries in parallel for 66 amp. hrs. 4 of these batteries will fit there if you find a place for the relays. I plan to not discharge mine more than half way to protect the life of the batteries. As you know the Engle pulls 2.5 amps at 12 V and mine runs about 1/3 of the time in ref. mode so in 24 hrs. it uses around 18 amp. hrs. That's as low as the battery should be pulled. Using the 1/4 factor mentioned in the cruising sailor's post you will be looking at getting 2.5 amps average from your panel. In ten hrs. that's 25 amp. hrs. That will just keep the Engle going. This is what I find my setup of 100 watt panel will do, most of the time.
The battery chargers in both of our vans cost $200 each (20A. smart chargers). When we're plugged in the battery charges quickly. Pamper your batteries, keep their charge as high as possible and don't over discharge them. I suspect your batteries were severely damaged by over discharging them. Ron H. |
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Corwyn Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2009 Posts: 2230 Location: Olympia, Washington
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Okay,
I need to play the stoopit card here:
I have a newer 90 amp alternator and a GW auxiliary battery kit.
I have a 100ah wet cell house battery and a group 41 sealed starting battery.
I use my van as a daily driver and the house bank is down to 11.2 volts.
Is a voltage regulator the solution?
Is my 90 amp alternator insufficient for keeping both cells charged up?
Again. . . electrically stoopit here. _________________ '90 White Westy ("Knarr")
FAS Gen V 2.0
The Annual Baja Rally
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=604813&highlight=baja
"If anything's" gonna happen, it's gonna happen out there"
~ Captain Ron ~ |
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madspaniard Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2008 Posts: 3795 Location: Alameda, CA
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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Corwyn wrote: |
Okay,
I need to play the stoopit card here:
I have a newer 90 amp alternator and a GW auxiliary battery kit.
I have a 100ah wet cell house battery and a group 41 sealed starting battery.
I use my van as a daily driver and the house bank is down to 11.2 volts.
Is a voltage regulator the solution?
Is my 90 amp alternator insufficient for keeping both cells charged up?
Again. . . electrically stoopit here. |
you mean an adjustable voltage regulator. Yes, that would probably improve things but I still think you should be seeing more than 11.2 volts if you drive daily, of course that would depend on how much you drive each day and how much daily load you have on the house bank. _________________ 1991 Westy auto w/ Peloquin TBD
"The only difference between me and a madman is that I'm not mad” - Salvador Dali |
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RichBenn Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2005 Posts: 703 Location: Lake Tahoe, NV
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Others have mentioned trickle charging your battery. I agree, and a "smart" charger that puts out 6 amps then drops and then does pulsed charging when you get mostly charged would be best - PWM (pulse width modulation) has been shown to have some success with somewhat sulfated batteries, but I wouldn't count on it reviving a dead battery.
First thing to do is to check the water level in your battery cells. If one or more is down past the battery plates, you should not charge. Fill with distilled water. I've gotten a bit more use out of some batteries that have "run dry" or been heavily discharged after filling and charging with a smart charger, but it's not a good thing to let it cells go dry or fully discharge any battery.
And, like others mentioned, separate your batteries before charging and testing.
Once you have fully charged the battery, check the voltage. It should be in the 14+ range. Then put a small load on it (say some 12V lights) for 5-10 minutes to get rid of surface charge. Wait another 10 plus minutes and measure the voltage. It should be 12.7 volts or more on a healthy battery. If it's low 12's or worse, it's going or gone. Time for a new battery.
You can also do a test with an S.G. (specific gravity) tester. I think you can still get simple floating ball testers at the local auto parts store. Each cell can be tested for state of charge by sucking some into the tester. Number of balls (different colors) will should 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, full (or some such).
I will say that true deep cycle batteries are better than the "marine" starting/deep cycle batteries. True deep cycles can handle many more deep discharges. Not going past 50% discharge will be best for longevity, which is why many do more than one deep cycle battery if they have an electric fridge. Those fridges suck a lot of juice compared to almost everything else. (Well, some sound systems draw a significant amount). _________________ Rich |
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nocreditnodebt Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2012 Posts: 332 Location: Socal
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Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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Chronically undercharged batteries usually have no issues with excessive water usage. If electrolyte levels are found to be low, fill just enough to cover the plates, then recharge.
If you fill the cells then recharge the expansion of the electrolyte due to heating and increased density can cause overflow when battery does approach full charge. This overflow then throws out the Specific gravity for the rest of the shortened battery life.
Usually if any portion of the cells are exposed, the battery is done for, sooner rather than later, and refilling a battery with exposed plates is not going to make everything better. Actually refilling a battery that did not have exposed plates will cause more voltage drop under discharge as the acid is now weaker. I see this every time I top off my flooded battery. It is to be expected.
Floating ball hydrometers are next to worthless. Get a turkey baster style with a glass float and thermometer for temp compensation like the OTC 4619.
Too many people are afraid to charge a battery fast thinking a 'trickle' is somehow better. The battery itself limits how much amperage it can handle at the voltage provided by the charging source. Don't fear a higher amp charger, especially on a chronically undercharged battery. High amperage on a depleted battery has a much better chance of restoring lost capacity than a low and slow trickle charge, no matter what grandpa taught you, or how satisfying the word 'trickle' might be to some.
A trickle charge might replace only 25 amp hours or less overnight on a 50 amp hour battery, leaving it half charged, and the ignorant trickle charger thinking it is full charged.
Removing surface charge is different on each and every battery and different as a battery ages. There is no formula that is truly accurate. Even 24 hours at rest might not be enough to bleed off surface charge. Voltage is a poor indicator of state of charge unless a battery has been at rest for 24 hours plus.
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/battery_state_of_charge
The OP's battery is toast. Oreilleys is just being stubborn at honoring a warranty, and Such a heavily abused battery should not qualify for warranty anyway in my opinion.
Its like running out of gas and blaming the manufacturer of the fuel tank. |
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jester2000 Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2011 Posts: 7 Location: Santa Barbara, California
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Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Hey everyone -- I owe you all a HUGE THANK YOU~!! for all the support. sorry it took so long for me to reply. I learned a lot -- definitely realize the damage now that happens when a virgin deep-cycle gets drained super-low. I ended up trying Oreillys one more time, and low and behold -- they replaced it.
Take care,
Jess |
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EL31415 Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2009 Posts: 192 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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You may end up killing your battery again
You should use Morningstar sunsaver mppt If your battery discharge to a set point it will disconnect the load and protect the battery.
What model of bluesea battery combiner do you have ? _________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1985 Westy |
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jmranger Samba Member
Joined: January 14, 2010 Posts: 699 Location: Quebec
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Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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jester2000 wrote: |
LEDs can consume up to 36W |
You like it bright.
Be aware that dimmers don't necessarily work the way we expect them to work. Even if you dim the lighting by an apparent 50%, you may still be using 90% of the nominal power.
EL31415 wrote: |
You may end up killing your battery again |
x2. Your battery may or may not have been a dud. Unless you can rule out that your setup is OK (i.e. fully charging the battery regularly, and not letting the loads discharge it too much), you may find yourself with another fight with OReilly soon. Time to get some metering equipments (it might be as simple as a multimeter) and check what's really happening. |
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