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68vwfasty
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2014
Posts: 277
Location: Portland, OR
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 Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Ok, understood. When you said the tubing was too small I was thinking you meant that. But I see that it is the section after the filter you are concerned about.
On another note. What is on the other side of the transmission (opposite of your scoop)? Oil cooler? |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4919
Location: Southern AB
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68vwfasty
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2014
Posts: 277
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:45 am Post subject: |
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Do you have more info on it in your build thread?
I might be needing one. But my engine is new (only 300 miles) and I am not sure it is tuned optimally. My understanding is the timing and the carbs size and tuning have a lot to do with head temperature. And of course the gauges can be pretty inaccurate too. |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4919
Location: Southern AB
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4919
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:14 am Post subject: |
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a little more progress from foam buck to glass wrapped.
I decided to get the top end in glass and epoxy so I can have the intake air smooth as possible, then add the filter flange and build the air box around it.
The biaxial glass cloth goes around corners and conforms very well. The ecopoxy is a non stinky/toxic epoxy I can use in the basement in the winter months.
I will let this set up, then sand and check the thickness, may have to add some more layers to firm it up. Most of it is 4 layers right now.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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68vwfasty
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2014
Posts: 277
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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That's looking nice. keep up the good work.
I talked with a K&N tech the other day telling him they need to design something for our needs. They and their other company (spectre) do make some plenums but not anything we can use. And the prices are crazy high.
I thought about using the K&N Apollo system with a custom plenum (one for each carb). Maybe.
I look forward to seeing your progress. |
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Multi69s
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5363
Location: Lefty, CA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:02 am Post subject: |
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By far, this is THE BEST forum on the samba. There are no egos to massage and peoples advice and failures are freely taken with no abuse from fellow members. I never thought my post would get such a large response.
One thing that I was think about: since an engine is in a way a large air pump, dose anyone know of a calculator that would calculate the CFMs of air that would be needed for an engine of a certain size? I know that it would not be able to take many of the engines particular specs into account (heads, cam, carbs etc.). However, it could take some of the guess work out of the air cleaner setup. If you has a rough estimate, then you may be able to determine what size intake runners you would need to supply the filter assembly.
As WIKI is doing, he is pulling fresh air from two different sources. If you knew what the estimated gross CFMs were, you might be able to determine if the air inlets were flowing enough air for the engine versus whether there is a problem with the air cleaner assembly.
Just thinking out loud.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight= |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4919
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 6:39 am Post subject: |
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What about the flow numbers from the heads? if you know the max flow the heads can you estimate the size? I guess it also depends on if you are pulling air through the stock location or ramming it in through an intake scoop.
Like Ray said, it also depends on the flow of the air.
The stock oil bath is not really a smooth flowing intake but it works for the stock motor in the stock rpm range.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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68vwfasty
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2014
Posts: 277
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:02 am Post subject: |
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The more I have researched this the more I have come to learn how complex it is. There are calculators to determine carb sizing / intake manifold but not much on the cold air intake system. There are quite a few discussions on the web and the racing forums have some real interesting conversations. Just look at velocity stacks and see the performnce differences in short or tall.
I think it is going to take some experimentation to find the right solution. The plenum design, filter size, and intake tubing size, length, and path are all going to play into the results. And from what I read there are compromises between low end and top end performance.
I am very interested in the results of those who are trying different options. |
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Walter64
Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2013
Posts: 146
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:38 am Post subject: Air flow |
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Mark, love your work. I am very interested in this thread as I am building a Type 3 motor that should appear stock but have close to 100hp. I am planning on 90.5mm x 78mm, Stage 1 heads 40 x 35, engel 100, 1.25:1 rockers, 38mm (1½) CSP exhaust with heat.
To keep the stock appearance I plan on using twin solex 40mm PDSIT adapted to ICT manifolds, the stock air cleaner will be modified by cutting it and welding a 15mm strip in it to raise it 20mm, this should improve the airflow & use paper element.
Sofar the heads, manifolds & carbs are being done by Alstrup.
Now reading this post I can see i need to allow for increased volume of air getting to the air cleaner from the stock intake. Looks like I'll be fabricating something like Mark's scoops and feed it in to the other side of the aircleaner aswell. Thank you Mark.
I am removing the rear apron to repair it, so I can increase the size of the inlet as shown by Clatter. Never thought of this prior to this thread.
As i am running twin single barrels i probably don't need as much airflow as would be required for twin dual throats?? Any thoughts?
How much Hp are you guys trying to get?
Can I ask why you chose a 74mm stroke and not a 78mm stroke or larger?
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66 RHD teak T34 karmann |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4919
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Can I ask why you chose a 74mm stroke and not a 78mm stroke or larger? |
1900cc is supposed to be the limit for stock heat exchangers.
I was trying to stay with the stock heat exchangers to maintain my heat, they were fine with the OTT exhaust. I took them off when I mounted the 1.1/2" vintage speed exhaust. Now I have to build a set of 1.1/2" heat exchangers.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4919
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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almost looks like i know what i'm doing 
it's starting to look like something now
next the air box, a $3 bin from the dollar store was the start of it, it has been reshaped a bit and will get the inlets added yet.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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68vwfasty
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2014
Posts: 277
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| That's looking nice. And it does look like you know what your doing. I will be very interested in your engine performance after it is all done. Remind me what your carb size is. |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4919
Location: Southern AB
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68vwfasty
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2014
Posts: 277
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Me too. And I have the VS exhaust. And I have a 2110. I do have stock heat exchangers on (which I know is not recommended). Might change that out in the future. I am still just breaking in the engine so not running any crazy RPMs.
Anyways. I am watching your experiment closely. |
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Walter64
Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2013
Posts: 146
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:48 am Post subject: |
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You definitely know what you are doing! Those parts look great.
Ok, so thats why 74mm, I'll still try with 78mm and see what happens.
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VW fan & Real Estate Agent at www.argyproperty.com.au
66 RHD teak T34 karmann |
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W1K1
Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004
Posts: 4919
Location: Southern AB
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:18 am Post subject: |
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last week I got the intake tube blended in and the lid edge on, snug fit in there, just like it was made for it. Also powder coated the breather box and new filter base on the left
been head scratching how to attach the rear connection to the filter base, I have zero space at the back to attach anything and still be able to get it out of the engine compartment. I'll sit and stare at it for a while.....
_________________
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/jim_martin_engine_build.php
1973 super
1965 squareback 1500E
1971 bay window westy- subi swap |
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pitargue
Samba Member
Joined: December 24, 2006
Posts: 232
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| Dodgy wrote: |
You could use a Brazilian paper element filter unit, as I did in my Squareback...
This maintains the cold air inlet from outside the engine compartment, as per original.
Best fitting filter element I could find (in UK) was for Rover Mini, there may be other choices in the USA.
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Thanks for the post. This is what I have in my notchback and I was scratching my head on where it came from.
Curious what the largest displacement with stock carbs would be because I really like this set up. |
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Nate M.
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2003
Posts: 1306
Location: Anacortes, WA U.S.A.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| W1K1 wrote: |
last week I got the intake tube blended in and the lid edge on, snug fit in there, just like it was made for it. Also powder coated the breather box and new filter base on the left
been head scratching how to attach the rear connection to the filter base, I have zero space at the back to attach anything and still be able to get it out of the engine compartment. I'll sit and stare at it for a while..... |
That is some absolutely beautiful work!! Fantastic job so far!! I love this kind of stuff. . .
Have you given any thought to adding a backfire relief valve to the underside of the top piece?? I would hate to see it cracked by a backfire through the carbs. Porsche added these to their center air cleaner assemblies because they would crack if you had a back fire that was large enough.
Something similar to this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LPG-Backfire-Valve-Shutter...337bc41352
Again, it's really looking great!!
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Regards,
Nate M.
Squarsche build
Heavy Metal Affliction feature
For heaven's sake, put a type4 and a Porsche 5-speed in there. . . It's the right thing to do!! |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:56 am Post subject: |
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What about this idea. This might work on a 1600 T3 with carbs .
All the air on the stock system at least on the FI engines is drawn from the right side from the oval metal pipe from the outside air intake grills on both read fenders.
Now if one is not using the heater or even if they are using just the long heat exchangers . Using J pipe one might be able to use the engine fan outlets (cool air ) ans just pipe these into the air filters intake , They are right near the carbs one on either side .
Basically at low engine RPM you have enough forced cool air at idle and as the RPM increases more air flow to the carb filter intakes . If you use the front heat exchangers a metal T might be used , of course you lose a good part of the heated air into the cabin and part of the forced air to the carb filter intake tubes. It is known that when the heat is off there is still fan air passing through the HE and out the top hat at the front of the HE .
It would not be enough air force to actually create a turbo boost affect it's not the same thing . The fan outlets are what 1 1/2" . Doing this would not just rely on carb intake suction you would have fan forced cool air RPM dependent.
Just a thought . |
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