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Separating dual batteries for shore charging
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Gnarlodious Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Freshdub wrote:
So if I don't care for the force combine feature, a simple SPST toggle attached to the ground and green remote wire of the yandina will allow automatic and force isolate features?

Correct. This is what I have installed, because I have AGM up front and flooded in back. It means I can disable automatic charging to prevent the flooded battery from being overcharged by AGM’s 14.7 volts. When I need alternator charging I flip the switch on.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just received ACR and thinking that instead of a small toggle located somewhere. I'd buy one of these
and separate the starting battery from the ACR.

https://www.bluesea.com/products/6006200/m-Series_Mini_On-Off_Battery_Switch_with__Knob_-_Black

Now just to sort out the fuse types and cases? Anyone have a certain type they can recommend? I want to
keep it on the small side so they can be put either in the battery boxes or easily mounted.
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thatvwbusguy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The m-Series battery switch will work fine to disconnect the large gauge cable from the starting battery to the ACR, but there is no real benefit to adding it unless you are trying to reduce the possibility of short to ground on the positive wire from the starting battery to the ACR (which can be accomplished much easier with proper fusing).

A toggle switch on the ground wire will effectively do the same thing at far less cost and in much less space, since the ACR can't operate without at least 3 connections (starting battery to post A, auxiliary battery to post B and ground to chassis). Removing any of these connections totally disables the ACR.

I like the Littelfuse MIDI inline fuses, since they are compact and can handle loads up to 200A
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Littelfuse/04980921GXM5/?qs=aOs975IaWlkzQw1Up%2FmjHQ%3D%3D

I have used these for auxiliary battery installations with very good results.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thatvwbusguy wrote:


A toggle switch on the ground wire will effectively do the same thing at far less cost and in much less space, since the ACR can't operate without at least 3 connections (starting battery to post A, auxiliary battery to post B and ground to chassis). Removing any of these connections totally disables the ACR.



I plan on mounting the ACR and the switch where you have mounted yours, behind the drivers seat.
Much easier to mount both on the wall and have the switch there to be turned on/off, than drilling yet another
hole for a small toggle and run wires to it.

Cost is not a factor! I own a Vanagon, Right!

Thanks for the info about the fuses.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys, I want to do what 'thatvwbusguy' described using a simple on/off SPST switch connected to the Yandina black wire to separate when shore charging or off the grid and then switched to combine when driving.

What is Yandina talking about in the documentation for the SPDT switch on the green wire? What does this accomplish? Does this add a 'force combine" feature?

From Yandina:
REMOTE CONTROL: The GREEN REMOTE wire is usually left unconnected for automatic operation. It may be cut short if desired. It can be connected through a single pole, center off, double throw switch for remote control. Switching it to ground forces the Combiner 100 off, switching it to +12 forces it on. The response of the Combiner 100 to remote operations is delayed by turn on and turn off timers. When disconnected in the center position you are in automatic. If you only need one function, a simple on/off switch will do. The remote control input is purely voltage sensing so a light gauge wire is sufficient.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When 12v is applied to the green wire, the relay engages.
When no voltage is applied, the relay is on automatic.
When the green wire is grounded, the relay will remain disengaged.

Note that the relay responds to any change of input after a slight delay to prevent jitter. Mine seems to be less than a minute.

My switch is a 3-way rocker, but what you are discussing is a simpler 2-way switch. The 3-way switch is called “On-Off-On”.
I found the actual switch I used, its a little hard to find:
Digi-Key Part Number CW135-ND
http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?KeyWords=CW135-ND
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am working on a simple to connect force combine / force isolate setup using a small (1 3/8" x 1 3/8" x 7/8") flanged project box that will hold a rocker switch and a 10A ATO blade fuse.

I will post some photos when I get the parts in and have a few minutes to set it up.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:04 pm    Post subject: 3way switch Reply with quote

You can buy the three way rocker switch that Blue Sea provides in their ACR kit, 7622 that is an "on off on" style separately from them I believe it is listed as the 2146 switch, don't remember for sure but it may even be a lighted switch with wires attached at switch side and bare wires on other end
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Referring back to the OP, his charging conundrum started with the need to separate batteries due to one battery being lead-acid and one being AGM. My comment is: I don't understand why many in our Westy world bother with AGM batteries at all. I admit that the bulk charging portion of their optimal charging procedure is faster than with a lead acid battery, but the "final top off" time for lead acid is faster. The net score is almost equal with a small nod to the AGM. Failure to completely top off either battery type brings premature death to either. I like being able to check specific gravity. Try that with an AGM!

My son has a "power pack" which he made and uses for his solar set up in his pick-up based "camper". It is a box with the battery, main fuses, charge controller and Anderson connectors for his portable solar panel, with a grab handle for the whole box. The Anderson connectors allow him to plug in to his truck battery for charging while driving. This whole unit does not stay in his truck, but is grabbed and stowed when camping. Since it is not fixed, could tip over if not secured, and it has limited venting, he uses an AGM and his charge controller is set up accordingly.

By contrast, there is plenty of ventilation under the Westy bench seat for a lead-acid battery, especially a battery with the "Smart" caps that Trojan uses on their lead-acid batteries.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought Blue seas sold some ACR's with a single sense feature, instead of Dual sense, but I guess I was delusional.

Single sense would combine batteries when only the starter battery sees charging voltages, dual sense combining batteries when either battery sees charging voltages.

I do not want Dual sense period. I do not want to share my solar current with the starter battery, nor expend any current to hold the relay closed, although admittedly the 0.0175a is not much on the BS ACR.

While the ground can be switched so as to not send charging current to starter battery, it seems if a Switch is going to be put inline, why bother with an ACR when one can just use a manual 1/2/both/off switch for full manual control.

I use 3 Blue seas Manual 6007 mini switches. One to switch the ignition to either AGM or flooded battery, one to switch all house loads to either battery, and one to switch the Solar to either battery. Any switch in the BOTH position negates the position of the other 2 switches. While the 'Ignition' switch is cabled with 2awg , the solar and loads are 4awg. I also use the studs on the back of these switches as power distribution points.

Of course, I must remember to turn the switches when I want the alternator to charge my house load battery, and disconnect it afterwards, and remember to not turn the ignition OFF with the engine running. Sometimes it would be nice to allow the 'house' battery to see alternator current without leaving the driver's seat. I will at some point rig up a dumb solenoid with a switched 12v source and a lighted toggle switch so I can easily combine batteries from driver's seat.

I do not want the 'house load' battery to feed starter motor. Usually I cycle my flooded battery and keep my AGM fully charged for its incredibly quick engine starting ability, but it is nice to be able to cycle either or charge either, at the turn of a switch.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The are three main reasons that people seem to like the AGM batteries:

1) There is a model that fits under the driver's seat and has 44-50Ah capacity. That is not a lot of reserve power in my book, but if you won't consider any other location for the auxiliary battery, that is about the best you can do without combining multiple smaller batteries.

2) They can be mounted in any position. This can help fit a bigger AGM battery into a tight space where a flooded battery might not fit.

3) They are perceived as being safer, due to the sealed design. This is somewhat true, since flooded batteries can off-gas at high charging rates. Since it is unlikely that this would ever happen when charging from the Vanagon alternator (unless you are running a high output alternator and large cables to the battery), this is not going to be an issue 99% of the time.

To further confuse the issue the fact that the starting battery box is vented and has a screw down lid makes some people feel that venting a house battery is also necessary. Since the battery compartment under the driver's seat is not vented or completely covered, yet was used for the stock house battery to power the portable fridge in weekender's, there seems to be a bit of a dilema about the necessity of battery venting even at the manufacturer level...

Cost is still a major difference between Flooded and AGM batteries from the same manufacturer:

Trojan 27TM - $149.99
Flooded 12VDC Deep Cycle
105Ah
http://www.atbatt.com/trojan-t27-agm-dual-purpose-...ct=T27-AGM

Trojan 27-AGM - $249.99
AGM 12VDC
89AH
http://www.atbatt.com/trojan-t27-agm-dual-purpose-...ct=T27-AGM

If you don't mind checking and refilling the water level on a flooded battery occasionally, you can buy the battery and the materials needed to charge it from the alternator for about the same price as the AGM battery alone.

When it comes to charging my auxiliary battery, I prefer using a dual sensing ACR for a couple reasons.

1) Since I don't drive my van every day, a dual sensing ACR keeps both batteries maintained via the solar panel (or a shore charger) when parked.

2) When camping, a simple on-off switch on the ground wire of the ACR force isolates the starting battery and ensures that the house battery gets all the juice.

For me, the ability to easily select the mode of operation makes the dual sensing ACR the best choice.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just installed a Cole Hersee SPST Illuminated Rocker Switch (58328-100BP) from West Marine on the black wire of the Yandina. When initiating the manual disconnect the light on the rocker switch lights up and the Yandina disconnects. That part works well.

However, when I flip the switch to manually connect the Yandina, the switch light goes out and the Yandina red overload AND the green combined lights blink and click in unison every 1/1.5 seconds. Just noticed that the rocker switch indicator light is blinking in unison as well.

Did I hose something up?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like you have a couple problems with your current switch setup.

To be able to control force isolate and force combine features, the switch needs to be on the green wire, not the black wire. Installing a switch on the black (ground) wire will only work to make an ACR force isolate.

The 58328-100BP is a single pole, single throw (on-off) switch. You need a single pole, center off, double throw (SPDT on-off-on) switch for dual function remote control of the Yandina. The Cole Hersee 57003-16 looks like it should do the trick.

The switch should come with a pinout diagram to let you know what each terminal does. Most often, the center tab will be common (might be labeled as B+ since this type of switch is often used to control two lights from a single power source) and the outer tabs on the switch base will go to the accessories. Check the pinout to verify operation before you hook anything up. It is also recommended to add a 10A inline fuse to both leads to protect the switch.

Wiring should be something like this:

Green wire to common (center?) tab
Top tab to 12V+
Bottom tab to Ground

Wired this way, you would flip the switch up to force combine, down to force isolate and to center for automatic control.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While separating the two banks with an ACR, I'd still like to use the Westy kitchen LED display.
Currently I have this wired to show the battery level of the aux battery, with the use of the 30 amp
relay. Is it as simple as disconnecting the power from the starting battery to relay or should I also
disconnect some more of the wires to it?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you still use the stock fridge on 12VDC while driving, you can power the water pump and LED display from the auxiliary battery by removing the wire from the stock fridge relay that runs to the 8A fuse in the 2-circuit fuse block behind the driver's seat, then powering that fuse directly from the auxiliary battery. The wires are connected to the fuses with set-screws, which makes this a quick and easy job.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
This is one of the reasons I prefer the SurePower 1314A for most applications. ...
There are other minor reasons why I don't care to use the BlueSea types though they work fine in general.

Mark


great information here. Thanks.

Another reason to use the 1314A ?
(I don't see specific reference to 1314A but maybe the 1314 has superseded that part?)

from pdf linked from here:

http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/...lable.html

"Engine start assist
When the engine starter is engaged, the battery separator will compare the voltage in both main and auxiliary batteries. If the main battery is lower than the auxiliary battery, the battery separator will engage the auxiliary battery to aid in engine start. The start signal must reach 3 volts in order for the auxiliary to main battery connection procedure to begin."
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vanagon Nut wrote:
crazyvwvanman wrote:
This is one of the reasons I prefer the SurePower 1314A for most applications. ...
There are other minor reasons why I don't care to use the BlueSea types though they work fine in general.

Mark


great information here. Thanks.

Another reason to use the 1314A ?
(I don't see specific reference to 1314A but maybe the 1314 has superseded that part?)

from pdf linked from here:

http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/...lable.html

"Engine start assist
When the engine starter is engaged, the battery separator will compare the voltage in both main and auxiliary batteries. If the main battery is lower than the auxiliary battery, the battery separator will engage the auxiliary battery to aid in engine start. The start signal must reach 3 volts in order for the auxiliary to main battery connection procedure to begin."


Interestingly enough this feature is exactly what I did not like about the Surepower. The way I see it, if my main battery is going bad the aux battery will automatically augment it and the bus will still start. Now I won't know that the main battery is not holding a charge and if the aux battery starts to go bad I'll be stuck with two bad batteries and no way to start the bus. I actually did not want an auto combine for starting, only while charging. I preferred to manually combine or physically jump from my aux battery if the main is going bad (until I can replace it of course). This is just my opinion and I can see others finding merit in the auto combine. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The option to auto-combine during starting is just that, an option, for cases where the option is desirable. It makes little sense for a Vanagon so you simply ignore that option when installing a 1414/1315 in a Vanagon. Unless you have some reason to want that option. I like simple so I wouldn't connect any option unless I had a real reason too.

Mark
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dobryan wrote:
Vanagon Nut wrote:
crazyvwvanman wrote:
This is one of the reasons I prefer the SurePower 1314A for most applications. ...
There are other minor reasons why I don't care to use the BlueSea types though they work fine in general.

Mark


great information here. Thanks.

Another reason to use the 1314A ?
(I don't see specific reference to 1314A but maybe the 1314 has superseded that part?)

from pdf linked from here:

http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/public/en/...lable.html

"Engine start assist
When the engine starter is engaged, the battery separator will compare the voltage in both main and auxiliary batteries. If the main battery is lower than the auxiliary battery, the battery separator will engage the auxiliary battery to aid in engine start. The start signal must reach 3 volts in order for the auxiliary to main battery connection procedure to begin."


Interestingly enough this feature is exactly what I did not like about the Surepower. The way I see it, if my main battery is going bad the aux battery will automatically augment it and the bus will still start. Now I won't know that the main battery is not holding a charge and if the aux battery starts to go bad I'll be stuck with two bad batteries and no way to start the bus. I actually did not want an auto combine for starting, only while charging. I preferred to manually combine or physically jump from my aux battery if the main is going bad (until I can replace it of course). This is just my opinion and I can see others finding merit in the auto combine. Very Happy


Need to read all the features of the Sure Power. Rolling Eyes Razz Surprised

"START ASSIST FEATURE:
An optional input from the key switch or a manual switch will program the Battery Separator to parallel the batteries during starting. This feature will only engage if the auxiliary battery has sufficient power available to assist in starting."

I'm very happy with my Sure Power. The only scare with mine was when I found out about the recall. But the recall was years before my install.
The only drawback(IMHO) is that this unit is larger than a Yandina for a basic set up.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI.......

Free Battery!
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=478468&start=380

Wait! We can't do ads in a forum!
They get locked and deleted!

But if it's a give away...... FREE .......... Is it really an ad?
Maybe it is a Public Service Announcement?

'Think'

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