Yandina battery combiner wiring update and info...

[tikiman71]

With all this great discussion on solar panels, LED's, battery combiners, and the like, I decided to upgrade my auxiliary system with a Yandina & the multiple UB12220 battery set-up (a la Karl Mullendore and others, thanks all for the great ideas!). The factory relay and my lack of battery knowledge killed my Odyssey in less than 2 years.

Anyway, long story short, I got the Yandina C100 and it came from the factory with the blue "AGM battery high voltage sensor wire" snipped at the base of the unit. A few emails to Defender and Yandina yielded this response from Yandina tech support:

"Millions of AGM batteries are in use as starting batteries in vehicles and boats, where a Combiner would provide no voltage protection, and they have no problems. Modern alternators have been designed for sealed batteries for 30+ years. The only need for the high voltage shut down would be if you have an old "bang bang" style regulator at least 30+ years old that charges lead-acid batteries at up to 15 volts and higher.

If you have a lead-acid starting battery with an AGM house battery and you do an equalizing cycle once or twice per year at about 16.5 volts on the starting battery you should disconnect any sealed batteries while equalizing. However with the better uniformity of cells in modern batteries, equalizing is rarely, if at all, necessary.

We had a problem with calibrating the high voltage shut off and it was simpler to just eliminate it than scrap a production run."

Just a FYI in case anybody else freaks out when they get their unit. Yandina unit, that is.

Thanks again for all the ideas and cheers!

Adam
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1987 Westfalia GL

[tencentlife]

I have a Yandina with an AGM cabin battery and I use the blue lead to keep the AGM at a little lower charge than the flooded starting battery. I live in a solar/wind offgrid home so batteries are a way of life for me. I observe that my van's charging system never really tops 14V, and of course it's not temp regulated, even though the difference between ideal charge levels summer and winter is near or over a full volt ( -.030mV/deg.C ). So I'm glad you brought this up, because I've been thinking that using the blue lead for the AGM is probably leaving it with too low a peak voltage most of the year. I think I'll remove the blue lead, which will bring the AGM up to the same level as the starting battery on a long enough drive. Better for the AGM, although the starting battery is still being chronically undercharged, but they probably lowered the regulator settings to limit gassing in starting batteries, since most are difficult or impossible to add water to anymore. Although both are very bad, leaving plates dry is far worse than chronic undercharge, and battery maintenance is just not on anyone's radar anymore since the age of "maintenance-free" car batteries.
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Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[tikiman71]

Thanks Tencent! Would you or anyone else recommend installing an adjustable voltage regulator on the alternator to help overcome the overall charging deficiency? I have seen these and others advertised (scroll down to internal voltage regulators):

http://tinyurl.com/7ql2jt

I have not taken the time to see if these are compatible with our alternators-just a thought at this point.

Thanks! Adam
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1987 Westfalia GL

[JXG]

Oops! - Posted to wrong thread
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87 Vanagon/Transporter Syncro Highroof
03 Jetta TDi Wagon

[hiram6]

[Gnarlodious]

[Gnarlodious]

I installed the Yandina “Combiner 100” about a month ago and have been watching it work. Great invention! Its actually a hermetically sealed "smart relay” in that it monitors and compares voltages coming from both wires, along with a timer delay that prevents rapid oscillation. It is a mechanical relay so no voltage drop as you get in semiconductor “isolators". You can hear it engage and disengage, which either helps you monitor its activity or gets annoying. On mine, I glued strong magnets scavenged from a hard disk to the back and stuck it on the Vanagon’s steel interior, which causes the relay to have a sounding board and gets a little loud. The magnets have no effect on the relay’s operation except to amplify its noise. This clacking only occurs during equalizing time, when the remote battery is charging. Irrelevant if you are driving and charging your auxiliary battery. But if you have a charger up front also charging the cranking battery while you’re trying to sleep… argh!

So I installed a 3-way manual override switch onto the green wire. This wire when grounded disables the relay, and when powered up engages it. No connection leaves it on automatic. Dead simple sytem! To wire it I used a rocker switch feeding the green wire into the center terminal, with one grounded and the other hot. The switch is somewhat hard to find, and has an operation of ON-OFF-ON. Similar switches common to eBay or Amazon have an operation of OFF-ON-ON and do not work as they are meant for double-ganging vehicle lights. I had to order my switch from Digikey.com CW135-ND for $12 shipped: http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?keywords=CW135-ND I didn’t wire in the LED indicators as they may be too bright, but can do it later to remind me the system is NOT on automatic.

One warning, this device is rather finicky about its ground wire, preferring a chassis ground. I originally grounded it to my auxiliary system which is only grounded through copper wires. Operation was intermittent and mystifying until I rewired it to the cranking battery ground.

My only complaint would be that the #10 wires protrude from the relay in the most obtuse way making a low profile installation impossible. Also I had to whack off its #10 leads to replace a no-moving-parts isolator thereby invalidating its warrantee. No big.

It all works great, I am very happy with this device. It pushes full alternator voltage into my Odyssey AGM battery up front so I am getting a nice charge.
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Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit

[BillWYellowstone]

When green gets +12, it forces ON, but does that mean on and sensing or on and charging?

I was ready to cut and paste with my question, but you hit right on it.

I am checking voltage to the combiner and it was about 13.24, but green light does not come on, wondering if it is functioning properly.

At this point my aux batt is at 11.8. Seems like it is never getting a charge.

EDIT

I braved the snow, yes, it is currently snowing out. Restarted, watched the output at about 14 v to battery, Combiner still not turning on, put 12 v to green wire, green light comes on. Tested at aux battery again, still at 11.4 v. Checked voltage coming from alternator, yes, 14 v. Looked at wiring again, I had installed a fuse from alt to combiner, tested at in side and 14, at out side 11.4, Pulled fuse. It is bad. Explains a lot on this one, other than when it blew. That part a mystery, it is a 30, and I remember one time I sparked something, but didn't know it may have popped it at that time. Guess it did. Now 35 miles out to parts store and back.
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Live Fulltime in motorhome
Have 86 Westy Camper 2.1 rebuilt
Work in Yellowstone NP year round.

[Gnarlodious]

When green gets +12v, the relay will engage within about 30 seconds (delay). At that point the two batteries are connected in parallel, assuming your grounding is common. The green light is always on when the relay is engaged. Voltage sensing may occur but would be irrelevant on manual override.

Don’t use any such 30 amp fuse on your intertie, it is asking for failure at the critical time. You may use a fusible strip or some such thing that handles 100 amps, in that case your intertie cable will act as a current reducer. I don’t have any fusing between batteries but rely on good insulation and safe wiring practice.

Keep in mind that your alternator may produce some amperage, but your maximum charging current will come from the full battery. In that case the Yandina can go into overload mode with a red light until it cools off, even while on manual override. If your intertie is #10 or 12 cable and your cranking battery is in the engine room and your auxiliary battery is under the seat, your intertie cable should limit current due to its length and resistance.

And don’t get caught in an eruption out there, I would hate to see that campervan blown up!
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Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit

[BillWYellowstone]

I have #10 going to alternator. Picked up a 40 amp, but guess will eliminate. (40 was all hardware had in stock)

as to the big eruption, well, that is my retirement plan. Go out in a puff of steam.
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Live Fulltime in motorhome
Have 86 Westy Camper 2.1 rebuilt
Work in Yellowstone NP year round.

[BillWYellowstone]

Radio Shack #275-0711 is a SPDT center off toggle, I think I will wire up the green wire.

Rated at 20A at 12VDC.
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Live Fulltime in motorhome
Have 86 Westy Camper 2.1 rebuilt
Work in Yellowstone NP year round.

[LLCoolRog]

'Gnarlodious' et al: Curious on the specifics on how to wire the SPDT switch connecting to the green wire on the Yandina.

So, does the black ground wire get cut to go into the switch and the leave the switch to connect to chassis ground connection? Can you give me a drawing or a pic? Thanks so much for helping me figure this out?

[thatvwbusguy]

The black wire doesn't need to be switched. This is the ground wire for the Yandina when it is in automatic mode.

Install a Single Pole Dual Throw (on-off-on) switch on the green wire. This switch should have 3 tabs on the base for electrical connections.

Green wire connects to the common tab on the switch. Check the pinout diagram that comes with the switch to see which tab is common (the common tab might be labeled as B+ since this type of switch is often used to control two lights from a single power source).

One of the remaining tabs gets connected to ground (doesn't matter which one).

The other open tab gets connected to constant 12VDC.

Protect the ground a constant 12VDC leads with a 10A fuse.

Leave the switch in the center (off) position for automatic operation. Flip switch to ground for force isolate. Flip switch to 12VDC for force combine.
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Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[Gnarlodious]

Black wire is grounded. For best results ground it onto a common cable, not the chassis. The switch’s ground terminal can also be grounded to the same black wire. This wire grounds the green wire when the relay is manually disengaged.

The blue wire goes nowhere.

The red wire, with power coming from the hot cable, goes on the 3ᴿᴰ terminal. When the relay is engaged, this red wire energizes the green wire.

The green wire will connect to the center terminal of the switch.

That means the 2 outside terminals are for red and black, On my switch, it is the opposite of intuitive. That is, the black wire goes on the terminal behind the “On” position while the red wire goes on the tab behind the “Off” position.

I did not wire up the switch’s built-in indicator light because I am stealthy.
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Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit

[Gnarlodious]

So to examine what my electricity is doing I installed a highly accurate shunt in my crossover cable and have been seeing some interesting results. Here is the shunt: https://powerwerx.com/current-shunt-resistor-100-amp
Notice that it is not some low-spec Chinese made shunt but quality made and calibrated by Deltec. The resistance of this shunt is:
0.1 (100mV) / 100A = 0.001 Ohms (1kΩ)
After sitting parked for a while in medium weather with the fridge running, this shunt shows by Fluke 117 with the alternator charging, relay engaged, .135 volts across the shunt. That's 135mV, meaning 135 amps is charging the auxiliary battery. Since my alternator is rated at 65 amps, current is rapidly draining from the flooded cranking battery into the AGM aux battery. Within a minute this 135 amps drops to 85 amps, then 60A (60mA across the shunt). Shunt resistor did not feel hot at this time, with ambient temps about 70º.

I was surprised to see so much current flowing from my charged lead-acid battery into my somewhat discharged AGM battery. Two problems come to mind:
1) If you shut off your engine after a few minutes you have discharged your cranking battery without giving it time to charge back up. Probably not a serious problem unless you do it several times in a row.
2) The Yandina Combiner 100 is rated at 100 amps, so its rating is exceeded for the short time it first parallels a full battery to an empty battery. As others have said, a higher capacity relay may be justified.
3) My shunt is rated at 100 amps, so exceeding that for some length of time, especially in hot weather, can permanantly degrade the accuracy of the shunt.

I am not going to change my system, but if I was starting from scratch I would go for the 200 amp shunt and the 160 amp Yandina relay (or Blue Seas 200). Even so, its likely you would exceed that briefly when joining the two batteries. I’m not sure what the danger is, probably burned contacts if they separate when overloaded. For best results, leave it running long enough to bring the charging current down to specs.
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Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit

[jimf909]

Thanks for posting this. I'm adding a 100 ah house battery to my current 50 ah house battery and probably should get the 160 ah Yandina.
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- Jim

[Merian]

Thread Revival for a PSA:

**** I discovered that my Yandina did NOT allow my aux. battery (aka house battery) to get trickle charged this winter.

Just a tip to be careful and either drive the van periodically on the hwy during winter, or switch to charging the aux. battery separately thu a port or something

Mine got down to 5.6 V and I think I bring it back....[/i]
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....

[VicVan]

I have a Yandina, and don't have this problem. I use a trickle charger hooked to the house/aux battery. The Yandina opens and allows the starter battery to be charged as well.

Guess it depends on the setup.
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'90 Little Blue Truck, 2WD auto, FAS GenV 2.0 NA (AVH)

[Gnarlodious]

Me too, it charges just fine from the auxiliare battery charger. Maybe you are wired wrong.
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Vanagon ’83 diesel AAZ w/Giles injection, 5spd 4.57R&P+TBD and a '78 diesel Rabbit

[Paulbeard]