Word of Warning

[Phil911]

Just wanted as many people as possible to know about my experience with "Carfax"...(I see some of you cringe already)

Before the v-dub, I had a 90 C2 Porsche (964) My favorite 911! Last of the hand made 911's, last model that was still aircooled while maintaining that iconic 911 silhouette.

Went to sell the car, a guy callin himself a "doctor" seemed very interested. Everything sounded legit. He asked for the vin # I thought nothing of it so I gave it to him.

Next thing I know, this "doctor" is going on about the car on RENNLIST a popular Porsche site.. Little did Dr know, but I was also a member on that site.

Doctor said how he pulled a carfax on the car and how it was totaled and salvaged and total write off (without ever seeing the car either)

This was the start of a one year "investigation" into these allegations for me.

I was brought up in the car business. My father was a mechanic and developed and ran several car dealerships, the last, which I worked on right out of high school.

I've seen good cars, bad cars, I've restored cars, built race cars from ground up. I checked the 911 out from top to bottom before buying it. It wasn't like an Ebay buy you know. This was a straight 911. Tracked perfectly, you could let go of the wheel at over 100mph and it felt perfectly solid.

I had the car appraised by the president of the Porsche club who owned over 20 Porsches over the years (3 currently) and had been appraising Porsches for over 30 years. He noted in his report that it was a straight car. He went over it with a paint measuring tool, made note of matching numbers, drove the car and reported that it was good.

But I also pulled the "Carfax report" and sure enough, the report said the car was "a total write off and it was "salvaged"

Meanwhile, I had proper title to the car without "salvage" title.

Moreover, I'm in Canada and the car came from US, therefore it had to pass through "import" standards and was checked more stringently that cars destined for one country.

But none of this was good enough for Carfax. They stick to their position, "Nope, the car's a wreck"

So I called the cops. Asked for any such report of alleged accident in the place and time Carfax reported. I got a SIGNED LETTER from the NYPD stating there was no record of such accident (Carfax says it was crashed on January 6th - who drives a 911 in the winter just after Newyears in NY?)

Next I called the Firedept, see if there was any 911 call about the 911. Nothing.

Next I called the freaking library! A nice lady there checked all their local newspapers from Microfiche, nothing about any Porsche begin crashed on this day.. (also CF says it was in a small town within NY, so its not like a crash like this would go unnoticed)

Again nothing but despite ALL THIS SIGNED evidenced to the contrary, CF would NOT remove their erroneous report!

They claimed that their information came from "1000's of sources" YET they would NOT provide me with ANY PHYSICAL documents saying confirming the same! They said, "oh, its an old accident and all records are "purged"

Of course this hindered my ability to sell my own property!

I had a lawyer that was interested in the car. He loved it. Spent an afternoon with me and the car. He was ready to buy it but I told him, go home and think about it (like they do at the tattoo shops)

Next day he calls me up, says he loves the car and he doesn't believe carfax is right BUT he said he would not buy the car because he had the cancer and if he died, he "did not want to leave his wife dealing with this problem that I am"

Of course this causes major stress at home, my wife didn't want to hear about it anymore. Here I had the car of my dreams and yet it was a nightmare!

Next I purchased another report from a company competing with carfax. Of course it came up perfectly clean.

Then I got really pissed and took the car to the local Porsche dealership. Asked them to go over the car with a fine tooth comb, write their findings on PORSCHE LETTERHEAD and SIGN IT, which they did and aside from some regular maintenance, they found NOTHING WRONG with the car!

Sent that too Carfax too and again they kept saying that "records are purged and your car was a salvaged car and were not changing anything.

So I googled Carfax, found that they have not one but MANY CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS against them and presumedly, if they back down on my case, that would open up grounds for the other cases, so the last thing they want to do is admit they made a mistake.

So THEN I contacted the ATTORNEY GENERAL in NY! Sent them all this information.

In my case I pointed out that any mechanic requires a licence, any home inspector requires a licence.. Car fax is not legislated by ANYONE! THey are not mechanics, or engineers, heck they don't even see the cars they are labeling! Yet they can cause all this turmoil, potential loss of income to people and get away Scot Free!??

Even the AG office could do NOTHING for me! All they did was pawn it off saying, its a "civil matter - you can sue them directly if you wish" can you believe that? Whats the point of having AG office?

After going through many potential buyers, one bought it. He owned another Porsche and said, "I don't need a 39 dollar report to tell me if the car is good or not"

But so many people put their decisions in the hands of these people that simply SELL UNLEGISLATED REPORTS!

It works in reverse too, sometimes they say the car is good, yet it HAS been smashed and they miss it and they are NOT LIABLE for THAT EITHER!

Car Dealers are suing them because the public believes, if it doesn't have a "carfax report" they are hiding something, so even if its a good car, dealers are being forced into buying their reports in order to sell cars!

Ultimately I could have sold the car sooner and for more money if it weren't for the erroneous report and tainted jury on the rennlist (who also would not remove the post!) How is that not slander?

Am I going to run out and buy a CF report next car? HELL NO! We bought and sold cars for years before CF, not going to let them dictate to me.

What I love about the VW however is that CF only goes back a certain number of years, so they are not writing reports for the older bugs, busses etc.

best, Phil
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1990 911 Porsche C2 (964) - Sold
1976 VW bug (sold)

[Ratt]

No kidding. I've never used carfax, but I've heard of others with similar headaches. I do wish however I knew what was up with my bus. I don't care about it, but it has a reassigned California vin, with NO BRAND on the title. It's like the original VW VIN and M-code plates never existed.

[lonotch]

My friends brother bought a mid 80's Porsche with a totaled/salvage title on it and the car was perfect condition and never in a wreck, it was in a mudslide.

Just saying, there are other ways automobiles get salvage titles on them.
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It's not about the window, it's about the people.

German Folks

[BIGMIKEY]

I have been skeptical about Carfax ever since my wife's 1995 Chevrolet Blazer showed no accidents just before I traded it even though my wife dinged it twice bad enough to need professional frame straightening. I mean, where does Carfax get their information?

Plus you can't look up a Bug VIN on there anyway. Not enough digits. So they are at least half useless to me anyway.

Your final solution to selling was what it should be anyway. An informed seller dealing with an informed buyer.

Good post.

Mike T
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BIGMIKEY

Deserter Series 1 project.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=787047&highlight=

1973 Beetle Driver, Marina Blue.

[a.wilson]

Thanks Phil, They've always sounded too pushy to trust.

[raygreenwood]

As others have noted....a lot is lost In the, details. Kind of like calling every carbonated drink a "coke". A perfect car can acquire a salvage title simply by not being claimed at an estate sale and sold for scrap. I have seen perfect running classic cars sitting at pick and pull.....not able to ever be sold.....because they were bought by that particular type of company as a salvage title.

A car can be stolen.....not a scratch on it....insurance pays off....6 months later the car is round in a chop shop bust. It goes to sherrifs auction or salvage.

Dumbass companies like carfax can Easily see a salvage title and simply erroneously assume its scrap sight unseen. Stroke of a key or a pen....done. Just like credit ratings.
Worthless company. Even with new cars...carfax only had records from dealers and participating companies in their network. A wrecked car repaired at an out of network shop.....will have no carfax record for that repair.
Most potential buyers demanding a carfax report are those who know nothing about cars. In their own mind.....its their only defense. They know so little about what they are buying. I have never cared about or found a carfax report to be more useful than my own eyes or hands. Ray

[drscope]

The only things that go onto a carfax report are things which are put on there through insurance companies or some shops getting paid by insurance companies.

If you damage your car and pay to have it repaired out of pocket, that damage will never go on the carfax report.

If your car is in a flood and you don't put a claim through insurance to have it repaired or totaled, the flood damage never shows up on the report.

Likewise, the information on that report is typed into their system by someone on a keyboard. One wrong digit and that damage may show up under YOUR VIN and the damaged car will still show as being clean.

For car guys it's normally pretty easy to spot damage and repairs if you take the time to simply look. But for the general public these reports were supposed to help keep them from getting taken by buying flood damaged or accident damaged vehicles without knowing.
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Mother Nature is a Mean Evil Bitch!

[Phil911]

They need to be regulated! This is what I pushed AG office for. If I sold a 40.00 report, noone would care, but because they are so large, people believe their 40.00 reports! And yet they have never seen the cars they label!

I told AG, they need to have not only licenced mechanics, but they need x-ray machines and structural engineers to "sign off" on cars IF thats the business they want to be in!

They need shops set up across the country, where each car can be checked and verified like this before they start slandering people's property!

By their own admission, "they rely on the strength of 1000's of sources and cannot be held liable.. bla bla.. its on their website and on the bottom of every "report"

if they get their information from 1000's of sources, how come they couldn't show me ONE!??? Every one of their 1000's of sources has been purged? Then they have no information! Yet they would not release that car from their system!
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1990 911 Porsche C2 (964) - Sold
1976 VW bug (sold)

[pyrOman]

Thank you for the greatly detailed report!

Never trusted any such new fangled outfit from the get go. Glad my "newest" car is the '70 Bug!!!
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Some people are so busy being clever they don't have time enough to be wise.

[banditwolf]

What a mess.

Many reasons a salvage title could get assigned.
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1973 Super Beetle l 1981 Trans Am

[johnR]

It could simply be a case of the wrong VIN # entered somewhere.

Years ago I received a "late" parking citation from a nearby city that I hadn't visited. I drove to their police department, said I hadn't been there in years, and had never parked in the place I was supposedly cited for. They didn't believe me, but went and pulled the original ticket where the officer had sloppily written my license plate number (or so it looked) and a description of a red Toyota. My black Mazda didn't match the description and they dropped the ticket.

I think the real cited license plate was "OVU xxx" but they entered "ONU xxx". Grrr.

[windfish]

[bigdog1962]

Good post Phil. It will at least make you think before trusting the Carfax. Things are not always as they seem and I, for one, hadn't thought twice about the potential issues with a Carfax report - not that I'm in the market for a new car.

Thanks again.

[sturgeongeneral]

Unfortunately people for some reason take carfax as Gospel truth. I have seen too many examples, especially in the Lotus world, of carfax mistakes. Wrong information, unreported info, misrepresented info, the list goes on and on. My best advise to all is to do a pre-purchase inspection at the related dealer and go by the info they find.
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Street legal fiberglass rocket ship
2005 Lotus Elise supercharged
1974 Chevy Corvette
My fiberglass car collection!

In honor of bowtie56jw:Another victim of the nasty "C" Praying for ya Jeff!

My exwife said if I towed home one more bug she would leave me. You know, every once in a while I miss her

[anthracitedub]

It should be called CarFux.... We bought a car that came back clean from CarFux, but after a while I noticed a few details that were clear signs that it had a new fender/door/bumper put on. Still a nice car, but you can see all the fender washers under the hood have witness marks where they have been removed, a paint run on the door and the bumper has overspray.