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914 CV joints and axles
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Synchromesh
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:33 pm    Post subject: 914 CV joints and axles Reply with quote

I ran into a problem with my '75 914. According to the mechanic there is a lot of play in those CV joints. I tried to tug the axles while the car is standing and I think he might be right. The boots look good though.

Now, I know you can't buy 914 axles/joints anymore. He proposed to use the ones from 930 since they're the same diameter. When they came in today it turned out the number of splines is different to there is no way to use them without updating the axles which they found at a ridiculous price of $425/apiece (just for the part).

So my question is - is there anything I can do here not to pay this much? Are there any other CV joints that fit the original 914 axles?
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 914 CV joints and axles Reply with quote

Synchromesh wrote:
I ran into a problem with my '75 914. According to the mechanic there is a lot of play in those CV joints. I tried to tug the axles while the car is standing and I think he might be right. The boots look good though.

Now, I know you can't buy 914 axles/joints anymore. He proposed to use the ones from 930 since they're the same diameter. When they came in today it turned out the number of splines is different to there is no way to use them without updating the axles which they found at a ridiculous price of $425/apiece (just for the part).

So my question is - is there anything I can do here not to pay this much? Are there any other CV joints that fit the original 914 axles?


Yes.....you can buy CV joints. The axles are fine. Unless the snap ring has been off and you were driving around for thousands of miles with the axle slipping in and out of the splines....the likelihood of the axle splines having excessive wear is remote.

The joints that fit are the same as VW 411/412....which means also the same as some late bus possibly.

If you go to PMB performance you can buy Lobro CV joint kits with boot, bolts and grease for $75 each which is a good deal. Read their notes on it. Its the same joint. ...except 5hat 914 was set up for four bolts and two roll pins. The type 4 was set up for 6 bolts...same pattern and spacing. So drill or ream out two opposing holes to fit your larger 10mm roll pins and you are done.
if you have a drill press you should be done....as good as factory....for about $175 per axle.

Far too many 914 owners....and God forbid....914 mechanics.....have forgotten what factory their cars were built in when they start looking for and pricing parts. Your CVs were not unique to 914. Wink
I spent years robbing CV joints from junkyard 914s for my 411s and 412s. Ray
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Synchromesh
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks!

So the CV joints Tangerine racing sells here are essentially the same thing but pre-modified? They are a little more expensive but it looks like they're plug-n-play.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Synchromesh wrote:
Thanks!

So the CV joints Tangerine racing sells here are essentially the same thing but pre-modified? They are a little more expensive but it looks like they're plug-n-play.


Have not looked at their site but bettkng money they are the same. Lobro are one of the OEMs. Good joints. Ray
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Synchromesh
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to my mechanic the Bug joints don't last nearly as long. Is that true?
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Lars S
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Synchromesh wrote:
According to my mechanic the Bug joints don't last nearly as long. Is that true?


I read somwhere that the Bug joints are designed for less driveshaft angle, possibly the driveshsafts on a 914 normally operates more angled Im not sure.


/Lars S
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you take a look a, Jim adneys post/site and I think Colin has posted pics in the past as well.....there are a handful of joints.
The 411/412, joint is identical to that of the 914. The only reasin it rates a different part # is because of the 2 reamed holes for the dowel pins.

The late bus.....uses alternately in different years....the exact same joint as the 411/412.....and another joint which is identical in all but one dimension I believe.

The 411/412 has greater shaft angle than the 914 owing to higher transmission to ground height and using the same size wheel with the same offset.

I can remember offhand....but I believe its the same shaft as well on the four speed.

Perosnally....I wouldnt use the type one joint. New larger type 2 lobro joints are readily available.
Brad anders may also have had the picture comparison.

Between those three names....you should be able to search out the pictorial comparison eithet here or on the STF.
There should be no issues in getting 914 CV joints. Its not the only car that used it and any differences were trivial.

Ray.
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Lars S
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
......The 411/412, joint is identical to that of the 914. The only reasin it rates a different part # is because of the 2 reamed holes for the dowel pins.

Ray.


I think there might be a mistake here, I remember when my 914 CV's went bad I tried to steal the CVs from a 411 but did not succed.
Today I compared the CVs from a '-72 411 and a -72 914/4 and they are totally different.

The cross distance from bolt to bolt is approx 85mm on the 411 and 78mm on the 914.
The splined axle outer dia is about 28mm on the 411 and approx 30mm on the 914.
(Also the 914 axle is some 2" longer than the 411).

When comparing Bug and 914 CV's there is at least one more difference (other than the possibly smaller shaft angle discussed earlier) there is a step for a paper gasket on the 914's.

One source to 914 CV is here:

http://www.pmbperformance.com/catalog/item/4055868/9926705.htm


(Lars S
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lars S wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
......The 411/412, joint is identical to that of the 914. The only reasin it rates a different part # is because of the 2 reamed holes for the dowel pins.

Ray.


I think there might be a mistake here, I remember when my 914 CV's went bad I tried to steal the CVs from a 411 but did not succed.
Today I compared the CVs from a '-72 411 and a -72 914/4 and they are totally different.

The cross distance from bolt to bolt is approx 85mm on the 411 and 78mm on the 914.
The splined axle outer dia is about 28mm on the 411 and approx 30mm on the 914.
(Also the 914 axle is some 2" longer than the 411).

When comparing Bug and 914 CV's there is at least one more difference (other than the possibly smaller shaft angle discussed earlier) there is a step for a paper gasket on the 914's.

One source to 914 CV is here:

http://www.pmbperformance.com/catalog/item/4055868/9926705.htm


(Lars S


What year of 411? What is the total outside diameter? Automatic or, standard.

Hopefully im not, messing you up. I have used 914 joints. Let me dig through the parts books and find the numbers.

There are also stepped edge and steps cor paper gaskets on certain years of 411/412.

Thank you for the correction on the axle. As noted I could not remember offhand. Saves me from digging up the info. Ray

EDIT: Yes, I thought there should be one or more years of 411 or 412 that fit the 914. Most probably I was stealing parts from my type 3s. Thats what I get for owning too many types at, one time Embarassed my apologies
....if in fact as other sites have noted....there is a type 1 based CV that bolts in with just reaming two bolt holes....it also fits type 3. The ones I swapped over may also have been from an early 411 automatic of which some used the same joint as type 3 auto. Hard to say its been a while.

Here are some numbers:

Type 1: 113 501 331. Diameter: 91mm. Width: 32mm. Ball: 15.88mm

Type 2: 211 501 331A Diameter: 100mm Width: 32mm. Ball: 17.46

Type 2: 211 501 331B diameter: 100mm. Width: 32mm. Ball: 19.05

Type 3: 113 501 331 diameter: 91mm. Width 32mm. Ball: 15.88

Type 4: diameter: 100mm. Width: 34mm. Ball: 17.46

The big difference between a type 1/3 joint and a 914 joint (if any)would probably be the ball diameter. This would be made up by either thicker/ thinner outer flange or hub or a combination of both.

As to whether a type 1 joint doesnt last as long.....its doubtful that the design is at issue. There are zillions of beetles and type 3 running more hp and torque than any of the 914 had stock....with few issues.

However as all have been finding...it matters the quality of the joints these days. From feedback on the forums, the best currently are still the Lobro.....but that the quality is still probably not, quite as good as what came stock on VW many years ago...even though Lobro was one of the main OEM builders. Ray
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Lars S
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never mind Ray, as you know the only one never making mistakes is the one ho never makes anything!

Took some dimensions from my 914 joint:

Dia 93,8mm Width 32mm Ball 15,75mm

Also I read on a 914 site that the design axle angle for Bug CVs is 17deg and 914 CVs is 22deg, just for info not claiming it is true.


/Lars S
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

The design angle for the joint on the 914 being greater......most possibly. But does the 914 use or require that extra 5°?

I would doubt it would be an issue. The 914 has a little less height of drivetrain above ground...and as you note being 2" longer in shaft will also require less angle for the same amount of suspension vertical travel.

I will see if I can dig up the link to the visual, comparisons between all vw and Porsche joints.

Either way.....it should not be hard finding good joints for the 914...unless you are putting a good deal more power and torque to it.
Ray
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wbrown45
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Type IV joints have 21 degrees of angle compared to 19 degrees for the bus joints because they are thicker. The outside diameter is the same.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wbrown45 wrote:
Type IV joints have 21 degrees of angle compared to 19 degrees for the bus joints because they are thicker. The outside diameter is the same.


Yes! Thank you. I caught that in the specs in the without guesswork book. It can rotate further before a ball slides out of the race.

But....and this is what I was getting at earlier as to whether the 914 actually "needs" more angle ability.....is that the steel flange/cuff on the CV boot actually limits the travel on most (but not all) CVs by a couple degrees.

I still have to find that damn pictorial comparison as it showed what each joint with flange was capable of. Ray
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chasisaxle
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even talking about CV joints make me twitchy.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, first time looking on the Porsche section here. Ya know, I personally have never had to replace a set of CV's that I would not stand behind. I recall working as a dealer tech and running into so many, for an example Bus automatic's, that the CV's were knocking and I broke them down and advised the service advisor. People were nearly in tears when faced with an estimate to replace all four joints and boots. I have a partially filled milk crate with the ones that these people replaced. I will honestly say that many could not afford the new parts and I serviced them, spoke to some folks out in the parking lot and let them know their world was not doomed. I have never had a comeback as a dealer or independent tech when CV's with some wear on them was not replaced.
I stand behind my word, Bill.
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