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Nirvana09
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Joined: July 11, 2009
Posts: 171
Location: Pacific NW
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 Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| johnnypan wrote: |
| vacuum leak.. |
It acts like that's the case. I've been up and down in this thing with my torch and no change anywhere. By the way, the carb still wont adjust. I took everything apart and boiled it earlier hoping to blast whatever was left out. No change.
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A few '56s, a '64, and some late model stuff. |
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sb001
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Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Nirvana09 wrote: |
| It's 180*s out unfortunately. Once I installed my distributor I found the rotor to be off. |
I sat back and thought about this for a bit--I'm going to go back to this quote where you determined the dizzy was 180° out based on the rotor "being off" after you installed it.
How did you determine the rotor to be off? Were you at #1 TDC when viewing it? Typically after installing a distributor, you would crank the pulley over to the TDC mark lined up with the crankcase seam, and check to see whether the rotor is pointing toward the little notch in the distributor body. If it is pointing the OPPOSITE direction, then it does NOT mean your dizzy is 180° off, it simply means that you are at TDC for #3 cylinder instead of #1 (since the rotor makes a complete revolution for every TWO revolutions of the crank pulley) and you need to crank the pulley around again. I wonder if you happen to actually have the distributor correct, and what you saw when you viewed the rotor was its position at #3 TDC instead of #1.
The easiest way to check this all is crank your pulley to the TDC mark, then look at the valves inside the valve cover for cylinders #1 and #2: both valves for #1 cylinder should be closed as well as the intake valve for #2, and the exhaust valve for #2 should be open. It will look like this (top of both valve rockers for #1 cylinder, and rocker for #2 intake, are pulled back from the head, where top of #2 exhaust valve rocker is pushed inward toward the head):
This will guarantee you are at TDC for #1 cylinder. NOW look at where your rotor is pointing, and wherever it is pointing THAT is where you connect the spark plug lead for #1 cylinder, then go around CLOCKWISE from there 4-3-2 in that order.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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Do a compression test. One way that spark plugs can be firing but cylinders not having any affect is when the compression in a cylinder is too low. Your test pulling plug wires while running doesn't work so good at idle. Raise the idle to 2000rpm and then pull one of the plug wires. If there is still no difference then that cylinder is dead (or firing at the wrong time).
Follow Speedy Jim's steps and identify what is not working.
http://www.speedyjim.net/htm/eng_strt.htm
Pay close attention to the Test section add it walks you through making sure your ignition is correctly set.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Last edited by ashman40 on Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Nirvana09
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Joined: July 11, 2009
Posts: 171
Location: Pacific NW
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| sb001 wrote: |
| Nirvana09 wrote: |
| It's 180*s out unfortunately. Once I installed my distributor I found the rotor to be off. |
I sat back and thought about this for a bit--I'm going to go back to this quote where you determined the dizzy was 180° out based on the rotor "being off" after you installed it.
How did you determine the rotor to be off? Were you at #1 TDC when viewing it? Typically after installing a distributor, you would crank the pulley over to the TDC mark lined up with the crankcase seam, and check to see whether the rotor is pointing toward the little notch in the distributor body. If it is pointing the OPPOSITE direction, then it does NOT mean your dizzy is 180° off, it simply means that you are at TDC for #3 cylinder instead of #1 (since the rotor makes a complete revolution for every TWO revolutions of the crank pulley) and you need to crank the pulley around again. I wonder if you happen to actually have the distributor correct, and what you saw when you viewed the rotor was its position at #3 TDC instead of #1.
The easiest way to check this all is crank your pulley to the TDC mark, then look at the valves inside the valve cover for cylinders #1 and #2: both valves for #1 cylinder should be closed as well as the intake valve for #2, and the exhaust valve for #2 should be open. It will look like this (top of both valve rockers for #1 cylinder, and rocker for #2 intake, are pulled back from the head, where top of #2 exhaust valve rocker is pushed inward toward the head):
This will guarantee you are at TDC for #1 cylinder. NOW look at where your rotor is pointing, and wherever it is pointing THAT is where you connect the spark plug lead for #1 cylinder, then go around CLOCKWISE from there 4-3-2 in that order. |
I got sick of dealing with that mess. I pulled out the dizzy, re-adjusted valves, and followed every thing that has been recommend up to now. It idles better. Definitely running better. after timing it, it would still idle low and try to die, as well as a hesitation on quick acceleration. The carb still doesn't want to change at all with any adjustment with the screws. Do the Bocar mexican carbs have different initial settings? Or am i just at carb replacement time?
The car on the road acts better from the tiny trip i was able to take. Now to finish adjusting the clutch.
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A few '56s, a '64, and some late model stuff. |
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Nirvana09 wrote: |
| The carb still doesn't want to change at all with any adjustment with the screws. Do the Bocar mexican carbs have different initial settings? Or am i just at carb replacement time? |
Where have you set the throttle arm screw that rests on the fast idle cam?
With the cam in the fully warmed up position (screw resting on the lowest level of the cam)... adjust the screw so that it is just touching the cam and then turn it in another 1/4 to 1/2 turn. This will slightly open the throttle plate. Then use the volume and bypass screws to raise/lower the idle into the 800-950rpm range.
Do not open the throttle more than 1/2 turn as you will expose the progression holes and the idle volume and bypass adjustments will no longer make a difference. The progression circuit will "overpower" the idle circuit.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Nirvana09
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Joined: July 11, 2009
Posts: 171
Location: Pacific NW
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| Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| Nirvana09 wrote: |
| The carb still doesn't want to change at all with any adjustment with the screws. Do the Bocar mexican carbs have different initial settings? Or am i just at carb replacement time? |
Where have you set the throttle arm screw that rests on the fast idle cam?
With the cam in the fully warmed up position (screw resting on the lowest level of the cam)... adjust the screw so that it is just touching the cam and then turn it in another 1/4 to 1/2 turn. This will slightly open the throttle plate. Then use the volume and bypass screws to raise/lower the idle into the 800-950rpm range.
Do not open the throttle more than 1/2 turn as you will expose the progression holes and the idle volume and bypass adjustments will no longer make a difference. The progression circuit will "overpower" the idle circuit. |
See, that's the thing. No matter the position of either of the adjustment screws makes a difference. It doesn't want to run regardless. It revs fine but will not idle.
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A few '56s, a '64, and some late model stuff. |
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Nirvana09
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Joined: July 11, 2009
Posts: 171
Location: Pacific NW
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Does a worn valve guide sound like a problem that could cause these issues?
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Nirvana09 wrote: |
| Does a worn valve guide sound like a problem that could cause these issues? |
A worn guide usually equates to oil leaking into the combustion chamber. This fouls the spark plug and can usually be seen as blue smoke out the tail pipe.
Did you follow sb001's steps for confirming your distributor is firing at the right time for the correct cylinder. The basic concept is...
When the #1 piston is at the top of its stroke;
and the intake and exhaust valves for #1 are closed;
then the distributor must send the coil spark to the #1 spark plug.
The only mark you are depending on is the crank pulley TDC mark (the timing mark is also close enough). Everything else you are confirming though observation and you can ignore all other pre-conceptions like where the #1 spark plug is on the distributor cap. By following sb001's steps above (same steps on Speedy Jim's page) the rotor will point to where the #1 plug wire must be installed on the cap. Once you know where #1 goes, the remaining plug wires are installed around the cap. Just make sure you are following the cylinder numbers as stamped into the tin near the spark plugs.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Nirvana09
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2009
Posts: 171
Location: Pacific NW
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| Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| Nirvana09 wrote: |
| Does a worn valve guide sound like a problem that could cause these issues? |
A worn guide usually equates to oil leaking into the combustion chamber. This fouls the spark plug and can usually be seen as blue smoke out the tail pipe.
Did you follow sb001's steps for confirming your distributor is firing at the right time for the correct cylinder. The basic concept is...
When the #1 piston is at the top of its stroke;
and the intake and exhaust valves for #1 are closed;
then the distributor must send the coil spark to the #1 spark plug.
The only mark you are depending on is the crank pulley TDC mark (the timing mark is also close enough). Everything else you are confirming though observation and you can ignore all other pre-conceptions like where the #1 spark plug is on the distributor cap. By following sb001's steps above (same steps on Speedy Jim's page) the rotor will point to where the #1 plug wire must be installed on the cap. Once you know where #1 goes, the remaining plug wires are installed around the cap. Just make sure you are following the cylinder numbers as stamped into the tin near the spark plugs. |
Yes I did! It cleared up the rotor problem but not the running issue. It acts pretty much as it did before. It has a little more power (My third and fourth very well could have been switched! I've pulled off and installed the top end a few times and I very well could have messed that up!) but it still wants to bog down during acceleration and not idle. It seems like it ides right if the cloke is closed, but once it warms up, not a chance. I made a quick stop at Avery's today (A local air cooled shop) to get a better idea. He nearly immediately went to the ditributor to watch how it was firing. He thinks it isn't firing off properly all of the time and thought it could be worn valve guides. I checked them today. There was a MICROSCOPIC amount of play on most of the valves, none were really worse than the others but there were a few on the 1-2 side that were tight. Thoughts?
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Nirvana09 wrote: |
| ashman40 wrote: |
| Did you follow sb001's steps... |
Yes I did! It cleared up the rotor problem but not the running issue. |
Thanks, I wasn't clear on that point. You only mentioned removing/replacing the distributor, not that you had checked the firing order.
| Nirvana09 wrote: |
| ... but it still wants to bog down during acceleration and not idle. It seems like it idles right if the cloke is closed, but once it warms up, not a chance. |
That sounds like classic vacuum leak.
Test: Warm up the engine until the choke opens. Remove the air cleaner housing. Raise the idle just enough so the engine doesn't die. While holding it there, use your flat hand to slowly cover the carb opening. This will choke of the air flow. Start at 50% and move to cover more of the opening. On a good working carb/intake setup, choking off the air flow will cause the engine to stumble. If there is a vacuum leak, the already lean mixture will become less lean and the engine will run better before it starts to stumble. Listen closely.
| Nirvana09 wrote: |
| I made a quick stop at Avery's today (A local air cooled shop) to get a better idea. He nearly immediately went to the ditributor to watch how it was firing. He thinks it isn't firing off properly all of the time and thought it could be worn valve guides. I checked them today. There was a MICROSCOPIC amount of play on most of the valves, none were really worse than the others but there were a few on the 1-2 side that were tight. Thoughts? |
Compression test will give you a better view on the ability of your cylinders to build pressure. It won't tell you specifically if the problem is rings or valves, but it can tell you if you are looking in the wrong place.
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AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Nirvana09
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Joined: July 11, 2009
Posts: 171
Location: Pacific NW
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
That sounds like classic vacuum leak.
Test: Warm up the engine until the choke opens. Remove the air cleaner housing. Raise the idle just enough so the engine doesn't die. While holding it there, use your flat hand to slowly cover the carb opening. This will choke of the air flow. Start at 50% and move to cover more of the opening. On a good working carb/intake setup, choking off the air flow will cause the engine to stumble. If there is a vacuum leak, the already lean mixture will become less lean and the engine will run better before it starts to stumble. Listen closely. |
It didn't take but a half a second to hear the difference. It definitly has a leak somewhere. Now, using carb cleaner or any of the other gas doesn't have any effect on the rpms no matter where it goes. I've replaced most of the upper end gaskets, I guess I'll pick up a kit of some sort and replace what I can. I haven't replaced the manifold to head gasket, I'm hoping that's the issue.
I checked compression before I bought the motor, 120+ on all cylinders.
And on top of everything, my roommate backed into the front of my car, the hood has a serious ugly fold in the front. Super.
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Nirvana09 wrote: |
| It didn't take but a half a second to hear the difference. It definitly has a leak somewhere. Now, using carb cleaner or any of the other gas doesn't have any effect on the rpms no matter where it goes. |
I had similar trouble finding my leak. It ended up being the throttle shaft bore.
Take your carb cleaner, put the straw on the nozzle. With the engine running at as low an rpm as possible, aim the tip right where the throttle shaft comes out of the carb body. The arms on the shaft tend to block the openings. This is where the straw comes in.
You want the spray to get in here:
If you hear the sound of the engine change when you hit the bores... they have a leak and new bushings are needed.
I have read stories of even (near) new aftermarket "Solex clones" coming with leaks at the shafts. So age of the carb may not mean much.
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AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Nirvana09
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Joined: July 11, 2009
Posts: 171
Location: Pacific NW
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:47 am Post subject: |
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Quick update
After replacing the spark plugs and manifold gaskets, it's nearly 90% better. After sealing up the bottom of the engine so well, its exposed a leak in the carb. It does suck up air from the throttle body shaft. Nobody around here has the proper bushings or the reamer to do it properly. I guess I'll find a good german one and rebuild it!
Thanks for all of the help everybody!
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A few '56s, a '64, and some late model stuff. |
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sb001
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Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Nirvana09 wrote: |
Quick update
After replacing the spark plugs and manifold gaskets, it's nearly 90% better. After sealing up the bottom of the engine so well, its exposed a leak in the carb. It does suck up air from the throttle body shaft. Nobody around here has the proper bushings or the reamer to do it properly. I guess I'll find a good german one and rebuild it!
Thanks for all of the help everybody! |
Just buy one from Tim at Volkzbitz
http://volkzbitz.com/
It will be basically a brand new carb, instead of you trying to find an old one and rebuild it
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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Nirvana09
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2009
Posts: 171
Location: Pacific NW
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| Posted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| sb001 wrote: |
| Nirvana09 wrote: |
Quick update
After replacing the spark plugs and manifold gaskets, it's nearly 90% better. After sealing up the bottom of the engine so well, its exposed a leak in the carb. It does suck up air from the throttle body shaft. Nobody around here has the proper bushings or the reamer to do it properly. I guess I'll find a good german one and rebuild it!
Thanks for all of the help everybody! |
Just buy one from Tim at Volkzbitz
http://volkzbitz.com/
It will be basically a brand new carb, instead of you trying to find an old one and rebuild it |
Those look damn nice! I just want to try my hand at getting one working. I enjoy doing my own work. I'll probably end up buying one anyways, but if I can find and use one I've rebuilt, more power to me.
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Nirvana09
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Joined: July 11, 2009
Posts: 171
Location: Pacific NW
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:31 am Post subject: |
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After changing manifold gaskets to the correct sizes (one small one larger) the carb suddenly wants to act like its working how it should. I can get it to idle, and have control over the mixture. Finally. One new development came up. First, it only want to run if the timing is a little off. Closer to 30* than 5 atdc. Besides that, the top neck of the manifold and the carb ice up when it runs. The heat risers get hot. Not sure about that one. I still get some good hesitation in the low rpm range though.
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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Did you ever "dance the plug wires" around the cap after you quit using the 009? You should have.
Pull those vacuum lines off the distributor and time it to 30º +/-2º when all of the centrifical advance is all in at around 3500 RPMs. Then note where it lands at idle for the initial timing. Reatttach the vacuum hoses and note where it is at then.
Report back your findings. |
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Nirvana09
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Joined: July 11, 2009
Posts: 171
Location: Pacific NW
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| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| Randy in Maine wrote: |
Did you ever "dance the plug wires" around the cap after you quit using the 009? You should have.
Pull those vacuum lines off the distributor and time it to 30º +/-2º when all of the centrifical advance is all in at around 3500 RPMs. Then note where it lands at idle for the initial timing. Reatttach the vacuum hoses and note where it is at then.
Report back your findings. |
The 009 was removed . All I had to do was install the dizzy at true tdc.
Timed at 30* with the hoses off left me at 5* atdc with everything plugged back together. No change. Jason at Averys was kind enough to let me use a carb from a strong motor and after a slight adjustment had my engine running like a dream. Fantastic acceleration from a 1600. My old carb was exactly that - too old.
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