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Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3987 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:53 am Post subject: not my first engine, but my first stroker, help guide me... |
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So guys, I'm finally going for a big engine. After all the reading and pricing I've been doing, there doesn't seem a point to build small with the cost. I've decided I'm going 94 bore, and either 78 or 82 (leaning towards 82) stroke. Chevy or VW journal? I think Chevy will be less clearancing? This is for a 61 beetle daily driver (50-75 mixed city/highway commuter miles a day, occasionally will see 150-200 a day) with as far as I can tell a stock geared transaxle. I recently picked up a 1 5/8" vintage speed exhaust in excellent shape that I am set on using, and already have a mexican universal case with 8mm head studs that I'm going to build on. I've got a pair of 26mm schadek oil pumps and I plan to blueprint one of them and set up for full flow oil system. My case has a type 3 block off, I'm thinking of returning my oil there. Any ideas as to what type of full flow setups work well? I've been digging around but I've only used filter pumps in the past for filtration. I have a decent size sump, not sure on size. Once I clean up what I have I'll see what size it really is.
I want torque, going over 75 mph isn't my style, but I like acceleration and smooth power delivery. Reliability is a huge desire of mine too.I don't want to have to spin up to the moon to make power. A lower start to my torque band would be nice. Cam/rocker selection and head selection are the voodoo I'm unsure on. Figure the experts can street me the right direction. My budget is kind of open ended, but I don't want to go too crazy. I know heads, crank, pistols/cylinders, rods, carb, and flywheel are my big expenditures, I'm probably going with a pair of IDF's set up from aircooled.net, once the size recommendations are set.
Thanks guys! Feel free to ask any other details, I'm not the best at laying things like this out, lol. _________________ 73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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MURZI Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005 Posts: 5063 Location: Madisonville, La
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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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82 crank, w120 sc1 billet, stock rockers with shim kit, 40x35 heads with dual springs, 44's. All off the shelf parts. Easy build. _________________ 62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam |
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Teeroy Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2003 Posts: 3682 Location: Eastern WA
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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:16 pm Post subject: not my first engine, but my first stroker, help guide me... |
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78mm crank will make it easier to fit car. My 61 has never been hit in the rear and my 2007 (78X90.5), same width as a stock 1600 (no cylinder shims) required removing right valve cover and exhaust to install/remove. _________________ Pres. Rivercity VW Club www.rcvwclub.org
Founder Derr Wheat Panzers (DWP)
ARR #3
www.autosportsnorthwest.org |
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Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3987 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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vwracerdave Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004 Posts: 15280 Location: Deep in the 405
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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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With reliability a big concern and a 50-75 mile daily commute I would build a 90.5 X 82 =2110. Fk-8 with 1.4 rockers, Steve Tims or DRD L5 40X35.5 heads w/dual springs, 44 IDF's _________________ 2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK
Featured in Dec. 2001 HOT VW's Magazine page 63
Watch my racing video's http://www.youtube.com/user/okvwracer/videos |
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Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3987 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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58Dub Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004 Posts: 1713 Location: Davison, MI
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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Lingwendil wrote: |
vwracerdave wrote: |
With reliability a big concern and a 50-75 mile daily commute I would build a 90.5 X 82 =2110. Fk-8 with 1.4 rockers, Steve Tims or DRD L5 40X35.5 heads w/dual springs, 44 IDF's |
Would thickwall 92's be a reasonable choice as well? |
They would work great _________________ 58 Beetle (now just a pile of parts in the corner)
60 Beetle (2221 turbo under construction)
70 Beetle Baja project |
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Matthew Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2004 Posts: 1760 Location: Eastern Tennessee
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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: not my first engine, but my first stroker, help guide me |
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Lingwendil wrote: |
. I've got a pair of 26mm schadek oil pumps and I plan to blueprint one of them and set up for full flow oil system. My case has a type 3 block off, I'm thinking of returning my oil there. Any ideas as to what type of full flow setups work well? I've been digging around but I've only used filter pumps in the past for filtration. I have a decent size sump, not sure on size. Once I clean up what I have I'll see what size it really is. |
It all looks good except for this. You have to return the oil to the case oil passage after filtering it with a full flow setup. Look for a full flow diagram and you will see what I mean. _________________ 1965 Beetle sedan
Click to view image |
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Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3987 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: not my first engine, but my first stroker, help guide me |
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Matthew wrote: |
Lingwendil wrote: |
. I've got a pair of 26mm schadek oil pumps and I plan to blueprint one of them and set up for full flow oil system. My case has a type 3 block off, I'm thinking of returning my oil there. Any ideas as to what type of full flow setups work well? I've been digging around but I've only used filter pumps in the past for filtration. I have a decent size sump, not sure on size. Once I clean up what I have I'll see what size it really is. |
It all looks good except for this. You have to return the oil to the case oil passage after filtering it with a full flow setup. Look for a full flow diagram and you will see what I mean. |
Ah, I see.
I've decided that I'll go for a pair of DRD L5 heads, unless I am given compelling reasons to go for something else. 40x35 valves, 40IDF or 44IDF, for lower RPM like I plan should I go for the 40IDF? Or just go for smaller venturis in the 44's?
So, I'm putting together a few things for a cart at cip1. Going to order an fk8 (k8 they list it as, specs appear the same) cam, lifters, timing gear to bolt to the cam, windage style pushrod tubes (or should the stainless ones be fine?) Cut to fit pushrods, and I think the rocker arm set. Should I go for the genuine engle lifters, lube a lobes, lightweights? For the cam gears, any reason straight cuts would be a decent choice? I don't mind the added noise. Otherwise I think a regular one is what I'll use. 3/8" aluminum pushrods? Also, do I want to go for the 1.25 or 1.4 arms? This will be my parts order for this week, next paycheck (two weeks or so) will be crank, pistons, and likely rods. _________________ 73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3987 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Any reasons that this cart won't work? I'll order this lot of parts to get started, and I'll go from here. Any better choices before I pull the trigger? I'm at about 390 for this order. Figure I'll sit on it for a few hours and then make any changes and order them. In a couple weeks I'm going for the crank, rods, pistons/cylinders. Going to check around for the best deal but figure I'm going to get most of my parts from cip1. The 92x82 AA brand pistons are what I'm going with I'm pretty sure.
My case I'm considering taking in to the buggy house in Hayward for machining. Any better places in the east bay that you guys can recommend? The buggy house has great reviews and seems to be the only place semi-locally that can do it. _________________ 73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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MURZI Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005 Posts: 5063 Location: Madisonville, La
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:43 am Post subject: |
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Stop....
The cam needs to be stroker clearanced....order it that way. order the cam and lifters from CB or DRD. Matched. EMPI lifters are HEAVY.
The pushrod tubes...spring for some JAYCEE tubes, only a few dollars more but BIGGER to allow more clearance.
The bolts...get button head allen bolts for oil pump clearance.
Pushrods...get CB's only a few dollars more.
Cheap 1.4 rockers are that...cheap. Order 1.4's from CB or get SCAT procomps. _________________ 62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam |
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Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3987 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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MURZI Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005 Posts: 5063 Location: Madisonville, La
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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Duration @.050 is what you need to look at... shoot for 255-260.
Fk8 with 1.4's will work great if you are dead set on 1.4 rockers. Fk8 with 1.25's works great too. _________________ 62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam |
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Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3987 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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MURZI wrote: |
Duration @.050 is what you need to look at... shoot for 255-260.
Fk8 with 1.4's will work great if you are dead set on 1.4 rockers. Fk8 with 1.25's works great too. |
Not dead set on any particular ratio, mainly looking for what ever will work best with my cam and heads. I'm kind of thinking of going with CB for my cam now that I'm looking around. Trying to order all of this stuff at once. Do I have to do anything special to get stroker clearanced cams from CB? I don't see anywhere to specify. _________________ 73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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MURZI Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005 Posts: 5063 Location: Madisonville, La
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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Call them. Darren at DRD is helpful and easy to talk to. He suggested the FK44 for my engine and car/weight. I ordered crank, rods, pistons, cam, lifters, etc from him.
The w120 with 1.25 rockers( most spec at 1.32-1.35) will work well in your application. 528 ish lift and 253 duration will match those L5's. Fk8 and 1.25's works too. You should know that most 1.4's are actually 1.42-1.45 so that will affect your final lift at valve. 550 lift is the max lift on most out of the box heads, hence the recommendation to stay in the 530 range.
If you order 1.25's make sure you get the ones with the adjuster on the pushrod side. Don't buy cheap ones either. CB or Scat. _________________ 62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam |
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Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3987 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26743 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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CB's grind 42 is ok choice, it's like an engle 120 IMO. BUT! I would not run more than 240 at .050 with a vintage speed muffler. You have to keep the overlap mild when NOT using a header.
Get a header, or change to a super mild cam. 2239? |
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Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3987 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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modok wrote: |
CB's grind 42 is ok choice, it's like an engle 120 IMO. BUT! I would not run more than 240 at .050 with a vintage speed muffler. You have to keep the overlap mild when NOT using a header.
Get a header, or change to a super mild cam. 2239? |
That's funny you mention. I was reading less overlap was better with such a muffler. Also, a few local guys are big fans of mild cams on big engines to begin with. Better longevity and all that jazz. Does the eagle series from CB come stroker clearanced? Or do I have to call them about it? I have no problem clearancing things myself, I have an old stock cam to practice on. I've got a grinder and tons of time and patience. _________________ 73 super beetle thread http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=649622 Back on the Road!
Modify your Kadrons for SVDA http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8115884#8115884
Cast iron VJU4BR8 SVDA reference thread- https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
Need replacement filters for original Kadron aircleaners? WIX #42087 is a perfect fit, as is Napa Gold #2087! |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26743 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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78 stroke it will clear the cam. 82 will need just a little and you can do it no problem. Rods make a huge difference. CB's H-beams are the most compact rods sold, and make any stroker much easier, and are already balanced and sized just like I want them.
CB does not use the scat pre-clearanced cam blanks, and advises that their excellent two piece lifters are NOT to be used on them.
There have been some problems with pre-clearanced cam blanks, so if you want to just steer clear of em that's fine. That's what I'm doing.
Which cam to use? I'm not sure which of CB's mild cams can use 1.25 rockers. Web 218 is what I was thinking of but supposedly web is using the darn pre-clearanced blanks too now. |
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Lingwendil Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2009 Posts: 3987 Location: Antioch, California, a block from the hood
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