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kjono09
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 191
Location: Seattle, WA
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 Posted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:23 am Post subject: Propex alternative, LPG water heater for camping heat |
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So here is the crazy idea,
Isolate the rear heater from the normal coolant loop.
Create a new smaller loop to be used as the heating medium.
Mount a LPG propane water heater under the van
Use a LPG propane water heater to heat new loop
Use stock rear heater to distribute heat within van
Use arduino microcontroller to regulate whole system
Questions to Answer
1.) Figure out a way to account for expansion from heat, pressure relief etc.
2.) Blower amp draw
3.) Water pump amp draw (or could use sterling pump)
Costs is less than propex
Ultimate westy hack
All LPG elements are outside van
New unique idea
No new holes in van
Used LPG, so can be used when van is off
I bought some of these items already, will be working on this over the next few months.
Here is the water heater I bought for $60.00
The Guts are here
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84 Retro-Westy GW 2.2L (Vincent)
67 Bug 2007cc (WBX in progress) (Davey)
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Last edited by kjono09 on Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:47 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32584
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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vanis13
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 3092
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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canasync
Samba Member
Joined: June 28, 2010
Posts: 656
Location: BC
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| Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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I have had the same idea using an Espar coolant heater. I have recently become a dealer for Espar and have learned that many such installs have been done, usually on big rigs. One thing to be aware of is that coolant heaters were meant to be used in place of idling a vehicle to get it warm. In other words they were designed to run 30-60 minutes at a time and not overnight or hours on end. That being said many of them do serve this purpose successfully for many years. Espar does however reduce the warranty from 2 years to 1 year on such installs.
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1987 Syncro
3 knobs
PumpeDüse TDI (17mm Garret Turbo, bigger injectors, stage 4 malone tune, intercooled)
Cruise Control
Remote Start/locks
Custom Lift
Custom Bumpers with receivers
Coast Mountain Hightop - Comming Soon
1985 2wd Vanagon Pre-runner in the making
soon to be powered by 2.5L Subaru
Custom Lift |
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Farf
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2009
Posts: 463
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: Propex alternative, LPG water heater for camping heat |
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| kjono09 wrote: |
| Isolate the rear heater from the normal coolant loop. |
You might have this covered already: It looks like the Espar and other coolant loop heaters use the existing cooling system expansion tank and pressure relief cap to maintain safe operating pressure. If you completely isolate your heater from the vehicle cooling loop you will need to provide for water expansion. |
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kjono09
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 191
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Just because I have decided to
1.) Locate tank undebody for more space inside.
2.) Locate fill in door jam of driver side. I am the 1% of westy owners who hates the look of hook-ups.
Just bought this awesome tank
http://www.eurocampers.com/Vanagon-45L-Grey-or-Fresh-Water-Tank_p_443.html
Got the idea from here
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=496901
Need to install it now b/c my project has taken a slight delay, due to repainting the whole Van! So now is the time to do so.
Also, anyone have an idea on where to mount the water heater standing straight up underneath?
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84 Retro-Westy GW 2.2L (Vincent)
67 Bug 2007cc (WBX in progress) (Davey)
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Howesight
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2008
Posts: 3274
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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What a great idea! Without measuring anything, it is apparent that the electrical draw of the inefficient Vanagon blower fan plus a water pump will be greater than the fan draw on the Propex alone.
The interesting side, to me, of your thought experiment, is the idea of using a couple valves to isolate the rear fan, but enable you to draw on engine heat when you want to. For example, if the system was set up to allow it, you could use the water pump to extract all the heat remaining in the engine (after arriving at your destination warm), and only then switch on the propane heater, that would be great. By maintaining a diverter valve controlled connection to the factory cooling/heating system, you would not have to worry about a separate expansion tank as the factory tank would suffice. The key element is going to be how to control electrolysis effects on your propane water heater.
Depending on how you set it up, this could also create pre-heat for extreme cold-weather starts. Any morning, you could open the diverter valve(s) to put some heat into the engine before starting. Very cool.
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1vw4x4
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Joined: June 22, 2005
Posts: 472
Location: Pgh. PA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Some Vanagons were equip with a very similar system. I believe this option had a gas coolant heater, or maybe diesel coolant heater used to heat the engine. I don't really know if it could be used as an interior heater or not, but in any event your going to be reinventing the wheel. Check out some the the Double cabs in Canada...
| Howesight wrote: |
What a great idea! Without measuring anything, it is apparent that the electrical draw of the inefficient Vanagon blower fan plus a water pump will be greater than the fan draw on the Propex alone.
The interesting side, to me, of your thought experiment, is the idea of using a couple valves to isolate the rear fan, but enable you to draw on engine heat when you want to. For example, if the system was set up to allow it, you could use the water pump to extract all the heat remaining in the engine (after arriving at your destination warm), and only then switch on the propane heater, that would be great. By maintaining a diverter valve controlled connection to the factory cooling/heating system, you would not have to worry about a separate expansion tank as the factory tank would suffice. The key element is going to be how to control electrolysis effects on your propane water heater.
Depending on how you set it up, this could also create pre-heat for extreme cold-weather starts. Any morning, you could open the diverter valve(s) to put some heat into the engine before starting. Very cool. |
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PDXWesty
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Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 6243
Location: Portland OR
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like a good idea at first but...you will probably run into problems with the safety controls on the heater you bought. Instantaneous water heaters are designed for a 60-80 degree temperature rise on the water. They intake 50 degree cold water and spit out 120 degree hot water or more. The coil on your rear heater is designed for more like a 20 degree water temperature difference. It will take in 200 degree water and spit it out at 180 degrees.
So in your new water loop, the water will come out of the heater at 120 degrees, go through the rear heater coil and come out at 100 degrees and head back to the heater. The burner mechanism on the heater only knows on or off. If it is on, the water will quiclky heat to 160 degrees (100+60) and go back to the coil. The coil will drop it 20 degrees to 140 and it will head back to the heater where it now heats to 200 degrees.
The water heater is going to short cycle itself (on-off-on-off quickly) or trip out on a high temperature safety (water over 180 degrees). Domestic water heaters were not meant to modulate to maintain space temperature and you are going to get very poor controlability if it works at all.
The other problem you might face is system volume being too small unless you add some sort of system holding tank. The water will recirculate too fast in the system and it will shut down.
I would recommend you test your system with a small closed loop and see what happens before you get too far with demolition in your van. Pull out the rear heater and mock it up and see what happens.
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PDXWesty
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Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 6243
Location: Portland OR
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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A little more research on the heater yeilded this information:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/bester-lpg-propane-tankles...rmvSB=true
Product Name: Household Gas Water Heater
Heat Load: 12KW
(25 degrees ) warm water producing rate
6L/min ( 6kg/min )
Gas Type: LPG Liquid Petroleum Gas
So perhaps it is a low quality heater designed for only a 25 degree rise in water temperature. In that case, it may work work as intended with careful attention to detail.
I would make the heater portable so that you could set it up outside the van once you reach camp with flexible water and LP hoses. It has to be mounted upright to work properly.
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Farf
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2009
Posts: 463
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Looking at the link PDXWesty provided it appears that the temp. rise listed is in celsius, approx. 77 degrees F. This may change your design plan a bit. |
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kjono09
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 191
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Project on hold, in pulling the cabinets and thinking about it I decided why not just paint the whole van now?
Projected completion of paint is late March.
Also, just found out about flockit, and AWESOME!
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67 Bug 2007cc (WBX in progress) (Davey)
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kjono09
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 191
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Getting there
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67 Bug 2007cc (WBX in progress) (Davey)
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atomatom
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2012
Posts: 1867
Location: in an 84 Westy or Bowen Island, BC
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| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| kjono09 wrote: |
Project on hold, in pulling the cabinets and thinking about it I decided why not just paint the whole van now?
Projected completion of paint is late March.
Also, just found out about flockit, and AWESOME! |
bahaha. that happened to me when i decided to change a window seal. WAM BAM, PAINT THE VAN, no small task. looks like you are well on your way.
what did you flockit?
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kjono09
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014
Posts: 191
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Flocking the pop top to match the new paint.
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67 Bug 2007cc (WBX in progress) (Davey)
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