why does my sand rail sit like this??

jaycone

i just bought my first sand rail, not sure what year it is,but it does run, stop, now that is another story

doing a little research and i think i can say this is a type 1 drive train?

but this thing is a piece of crap, it has potential but what i want is it to sit right. the rear is jacked way up and there are no shocks, also the front is twisted as well.

looking at others on the site, they do not look like this.
i know its a torsion system and i did remove 1 cap on the right rear arm and it can be adjusted to raise or lower the car, but very dangerous to start taking it apart

please help out, this is a project i would like to work on and gain the knowledge. i am a mechanic by trade so im not new to working on cars but i do know you should as questions before you start something you don't know

here are some pics

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D Rock · Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:30 pm Post subject:

Welcome to the board. Your in the right place to get your quesitons answered.

My rail looks somewhat like yours. You need a rear cage to protect your motor, no worries, I did too, that's what I was told, so I'm passing that along.

Also, youtube will show how to and not to do alot.

Good luck!!!

Vanapplebomb · Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:30 pm Post subject:

Too much preload on the torsion bars.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295

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Brian · Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:43 pm Post subject:

swing axle swings on and axis. so with too much preload you get the \- -/ thing going. not enough and its /- -\

stock beetles were set to sit like |- -| and when they would get too much weight they would go down to /- -\ take the motor out and they would go \- -/

get it?
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2RL · Samba Member Joined: May 02, 2010 Posts: 177

http://www.vw-resource.com/rearaxle.html

Welcome to the wonderful world of the swing axle!
Its not as bad as everyone says, just respect it for what it is, and if you can learn to live within its limitations it'll reward you with many many years of trouble free operation. That being said, they don't like being jacked up like that... It makes em extremely twitchy and is where the whole roll-o-matic thing comes from.

I've been running with a swing axle for as long as I've had VW's , and their very simple and reliable. Of course if the looks of the rear tires leaning out really bothers you there's always the possibility of converting to an IRS setup....more pieces to find (or buy), but it does open up more options for transmission choices.

Vanapplebomb · Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:15 pm Post subject:

Yup, not a lot of room for modification for swing axles. That said, bone stock for bone stock I would take a swing axle over the IRS.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295

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jaycone · Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:58 am Post subject:

thanks for the help guys, doing some research and reading here, im learning what things are called so i can google the right questions. ill keep posting pics of the progress

always wanted one of these things, and now i do.

thanks again for the help

enjoyther1de · Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:14 am Post subject:

Nice starter! I want those tires!
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Dale M. · Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:32 am Post subject:

The book "Baja Bugs & Buggies" by Jeff Hibbard has full procedure for adjusting torsion bar preload safely ....Basically all it entails is a floor jack and a length of chain to ease tension off torsion bar...

Chain Method... NOTE starting marks on torsion bar/spring plate!

Custom made tool...

Basically do not put any body parts under spring plate as you are easing it off or putting it back on "stop" .... If it slips it will bite you bad... Other wise its a pretty safe operation....

Book is mainly for BAJAs but they have same chassis and engines components as you buggy so most of the information is valid in both vehicle types....

http://www.amazon.com/Baja-Bugs-Buggies-VW-based-off-road/dp/0895861860

I would suggest moving preload on torsion bars up one notch and see if its more to your liking....

[

Once you have done its its not rocket science I adjusted torsion's three times in one day on my race car during initial setup...

Also your tow bar is a monster, I think you will find something like one pictured below easier to deal with.... IT just clamps to lower front torsion bar tube... With two pins and is easily removed when buggy is not being towed...

Dale
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

2RL · Samba Member Joined: May 02, 2010 Posts: 177

If you follow the setup in that book for setting the spring plate preload you'll end up right back where you are. Those settings work for a heavier Baja , for a lightweight buggy you're better off setting the preloaded closer to stock.,

jaycone · Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:12 am Post subject:

again thanks for the reply's

ill just have to try different settings and figure out what works best, closer to stock and sitting at 0 camber is what im looking for.

and yes that toe bar has to go, it works for now, but a much lighter, quick release one is what ill get. its nice to have, throw 2 bikes in the back of the truck and the buggy on the back, 4 of us can go have some fun. thats what its all about

dustymojave · Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:51 pm Post subject:

The lack of shock mounts is odd. Some previous owner REALLY did NOT understand what he was doing there.

You could add a pair of 1/4" thick (6mm) shock mount tabs on top of the bearing housing between the spring plate flange and the back plate flange for double shear shock mounts. They should put the shock mount bolt at about 45° to the spring plate. Then mounts on the frame rail above would be good. Shocks should have at LEAST 8" travel, 9-10" would be better. The swing axle rear suspension pivots at the inner end of the axle tube and where the spring plate mounts to the torsion bar, which is about a 45° angle, and that is why the shock mount bolts at both ends of the shocks should be mounted at that same angle. Make sure the shock will not bottom or top out before the spring plate does.

The MAX travel feasible with Type 1 swing axle is about 9". It is actually better to REDUCE the travel from stock to keep the camber in control and make the car safer to drive offroad. The Baja Bugs and Buggies book written by my old racing partner tells how to add material (like a piece of 1/4" key stock) to the bottom spring plate stop to limit the travel. My old swing axle race buggy in my avatar won a championship with that done to it.
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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.

francoangellini · Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:36 am Post subject:

Vanapplebomb

With standard eyes in rubber bushings, ideally, yes. If you have Heim joint ends, they can be oriented however you want.
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021

francoangellini

ok, this is a good explanation, but my shocks are standard double eye!

Thanks

dustymojave

While many people think that with heim joints on the ends of shocks you can orient the mounts most any way you want, my experience has shown me that's not really true. I learned (LONG AGO! and verified MANY TIMES) that if the shock mount bolts are not oriented parallel to the pivots, even heim joints will wear FAR FASTER than if they are correct. Rubber joints on shocks allow a certain amount of misalignment and heims even more, but the farther they get out of alignment, the faster they fail.

So...
While you can get away with the bolts not being parallel to the pivots for a while, shock joints will fail far quicker if you do. And the risk of bent shafts gets far greater too!

The answer to the question above of mounting swingaxle shock bolts at a 45° angle is... YES! Upper and lower mounts.

Even VW got this wrong on a lot of their shock mounts. I can't imagine why. They did SO MANY other things right. Not a big deal for short travel. But if you're maxing out the travel and using it offroad, then it DOES matter.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet.


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