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t3kg
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Joined: June 14, 2006
Posts: 2712
Location: Los Angeles
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racoguy
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Joined: May 15, 2010
Posts: 687
Location: new zealand
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 Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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Ok time to get serious and stop procrastinating over the door and quarter tops, I've spent ages researching various methods of vacuum forming but nothing really to be found about doing dashes.
There are a couple of videos here and there but nothing in any great detail so mostly as always has been guess work / learn as you go 
I'd made a vacuum table a while ago but decided that was way too tall so I cut 2/3 of it off and sealed it back up.
Then a frame of sorts had to be made to hold the dash vinyl sheet and as always I over thought it making it quite complicated till a friend of mine suggested making a simple wooden frame and stapling the material to it.........Easy!!
Vacuum table sorted, frame sorted.............next problem heating the vinyl evenly.........looked at a propane torch used on roofing membrane but decided you have no real control with that and wouldn't heat sheet evenly.
Oil heater, not enough heat..........
More google searches later I came up with a radiant heater with a wooden box surrounding it lined with aluminum foil to radiate the heat upwards.
This I decided might work so started building the box...
With the box built and material stapled to the frame for the first time I had the thought that "holy sh*t this might actually work!!"
I did the rear 1/4 pads first and they were small enough to do both at once saving a bunch of material and not knowing if it was going to work I didn't want to waste too much of it as I don't have an endless supply.
I bought the material more than a year ago from the only place in the country I could find which sold it buying their entire stock.....which wasn't much in the end.
Set up the parts on the table propping them up a bit so that the vinyl would hopefully get sucked around the part a little.
Apparently heat activated glue is used in the process but again unable to find any I had to improvise so i decided to vacuum the material over without glue, then peel it off once cooled and glue it.............doesn't work that well.....  more improvising required........
Moment of truth, vinyl hot enough I figured and seemed pretty even according to the infra red thermometer so suck it up so to speak and give it a shot.
Placed the frame over the parts and pushed it down while switching on the vaccum cleaner, BOOM some sucky action later two covered pads
Left the vacuum cleaner on a while till the vinyl had cooled some.
Not everything went to plan mainly I thing due to using closed cell foam over the steel substrate and thinking about it now it makes perfect sense as air trapped under the vinyl cannot escape through the foam, but it worked well enough to do the job and on the front ones I make the holes for the trim in the foam which will help some overcome that problem.
By now I'm feeling pretty stoked but that didn't last long as peeling the vinyl off wasn't that easy and gluing it back on was even more difficult.
The front ones will need to be glued at the beginning I think or at least I have to try it that way.
I worked around the whole thing folding over and gluing the edges and in doing so cut the bottom edge of the first one far too short but it will still be ok I think as its hidden by the interior quarter panel.
The second one came out a lot better, nice edge on the bottom to tuck under the quarter panel.
The material itself is a brown ish colour so it has to be sprayed to the colour of choice which of course is black, little glossy for my liking but maybe I can knock that gloss down a little..........we'll see.
Door tops next, have to modify the heating box for those two so didn't get to those today but Monday is a holiday here so................
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notchboy
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Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 22463
Location: Escondido CA
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t3kg
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Joined: June 14, 2006
Posts: 2712
Location: Los Angeles
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Erik G
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Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13281
Location: Tejas!
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racoguy
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Joined: May 15, 2010
Posts: 687
Location: new zealand
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe a dumb question but do T34's use those witches hats under the panel trim clips like other VW's? |
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t3kg
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Joined: June 14, 2006
Posts: 2712
Location: Los Angeles
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racoguy
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2010
Posts: 687
Location: new zealand
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| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Impatient as ever I couldn't wait so I installed one this morning, A lot better than what I had
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gregson1
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Joined: December 13, 2004
Posts: 464
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| That's a heck of a lot better than what most of us have. Really well done! |
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gavs
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Joined: May 01, 2014
Posts: 44
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| racoguy wrote: |
Ok time to get serious and stop procrastinating over the door and quarter tops, I've spent ages researching various methods of vacuum forming but nothing really to be found about doing dashes.
There are a couple of videos here and there but nothing in any great detail so mostly as always has been guess work / learn as you go
I'd made a vacuum table a while ago but decided that was way too tall so I cut 2/3 of it off and sealed it back up.
Then a frame of sorts had to be made to hold the dash vinyl sheet and as always I over thought it making it quite complicated till a friend of mine suggested making a simple wooden frame and stapling the material to it.........Easy!!
Vacuum table sorted, frame sorted.............next problem heating the vinyl evenly.........looked at a propane torch used on roofing membrane but decided you have no real control with that and wouldn't heat sheet evenly.
Oil heater, not enough heat..........
More google searches later I came up with a radiant heater with a wooden box surrounding it lined with aluminum foil to radiate the heat upwards.
This I decided might work so started building the box...
With the box built and material stapled to the frame for the first time I had the thought that "holy sh*t this might actually work!!"
I did the rear 1/4 pads first and they were small enough to do both at once saving a bunch of material and not knowing if it was going to work I didn't want to waste too much of it as I don't have an endless supply.
I bought the material more than a year ago from the only place in the country I could find which sold it buying their entire stock.....which wasn't much in the end.
Set up the parts on the table propping them up a bit so that the vinyl would hopefully get sucked around the part a little.
Apparently heat activated glue is used in the process but again unable to find any I had to improvise so i decided to vacuum the material over without glue, then peel it off once cooled and glue it.............doesn't work that well..... more improvising required........
Moment of truth, vinyl hot enough I figured and seemed pretty even according to the infra red thermometer so suck it up so to speak and give it a shot.
Placed the frame over the parts and pushed it down while switching on the vaccum cleaner, BOOM some sucky action later two covered pads
Left the vacuum cleaner on a while till the vinyl had cooled some.
Not everything went to plan mainly I thing due to using closed cell foam over the steel substrate and thinking about it now it makes perfect sense as air trapped under the vinyl cannot escape through the foam, but it worked well enough to do the job and on the front ones I make the holes for the trim in the foam which will help some overcome that problem.
By now I'm feeling pretty stoked but that didn't last long as peeling the vinyl off wasn't that easy and gluing it back on was even more difficult.
The front ones will need to be glued at the beginning I think or at least I have to try it that way.
I worked around the whole thing folding over and gluing the edges and in doing so cut the bottom edge of the first one far too short but it will still be ok I think as its hidden by the interior quarter panel.
The second one came out a lot better, nice edge on the bottom to tuck under the quarter panel.
The material itself is a brown ish colour so it has to be sprayed to the colour of choice which of course is black, little glossy for my liking but maybe I can knock that gloss down a little..........we'll see.
Door tops next, have to modify the heating box for those two so didn't get to those today but Monday is a holiday here so................
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Hey John,
Probably far too late now but i guess it can serve as info for other people who might give it a go. The glue used for re-soleing shoes is a heat activated contact adhesive made by a company called Topy, your local shoe repairer will have it. It has to be the yellow one, not the clear one though. I'm sure there is also a gun-able version that actual re-upholsterers use which activates when they run a steam wand over it as well....
Looks awesome as well so don't be to worried about the results you got! |
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racoguy
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Joined: May 15, 2010
Posts: 687
Location: new zealand
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the info however I suspect it won't be available in New Zealand like most things I've needed so far.
I still have lower dash to cover and make a completely new dash top so i'll try and get some better glue for those as the dash top especially sees a lot more sun heat making a good glue all the more important.
Made a start on one of the door tops last night, rain outside and nothing on TV gave me a good enough excuse to head to the shop and play around.
First thing was to make the box longer to account for the larger piece of vinyl for the door tops, easily extended with plywood and covered again with aluminum foil.
I suspected that the one heater I had wouldn't quite cut the mustard with heat output to evenly heat the sheet..............I was right.
150 celcius seems to be the limit of this heater which for simple shapes like this is fine but anything more complicated will need another 50 deg of heat I think.
Since I had everything in place I tried heating the colder ends some more with a mapp gas burner which kinda worked good enough to cover one of the pads.
To overcome the trapped air due to the closed cell foam I used I pre cut the trim holes in the foam this time before covering the door top so that the air could be sucked out through the little holes which seemed to work a lot better than the rear ones.
I don't know how well this glue will hold up in direct sun / heat but it's not like the car will be parked outside with the windows up for long periods of time so hopefully it will last.
With the part set up on the table and the vinyl struggling to get hot enough I wondered if I should call it quits and leave it till today but I figured I'm here now so I'll give it a shot, besides whats the worst that could happen right?
Well other than getting the frame not quite lined up meaning I didn't have as much vacuum as I could have it turned out pretty good.
Folding the edges over neatly is quite difficult, the originals are just trimmed off at the edge but mine I folded over to make extra sure this stuff stays on and clamping it to the door helps with that as well.
Spent a couple of hours gluing the edges and trimming the panel up, drilled the holes through the vinyl for the trim ready for a coat of black vinyl paint.
By now I'd had enough and left it alone to dry, which brings me to this morning.................I just have to have this installed TODAY you know!
Cleaned the panel with solvent and layed down a coat of black only to have it dry to a very dull spotted finish, weird..........was fine yesterday........
Suddenly thought that the weather today is a lot colder so I pre warmed the piece with the hot air gun and hit it again, BOOM success!!
Must have been the drop in temperature, who knows.
Vinyl paint is fast drying which suits me well, 30 min later on with the trim and install this sucker.
Nice fit on the door and in some ways seems to fit nicer than the factory ones, over all a great result and pretty much exactly what I needed.
On to the other side now but I'll first have to get another heater........
Last edited by racoguy on Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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racoguy
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Joined: May 15, 2010
Posts: 687
Location: new zealand
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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Both parts installed, trim lines up and things look pretty straight, sometimes I amaze even myself.
One door top left to do then on to the dashes, that ought to be fun.
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t3kg
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Joined: June 14, 2006
Posts: 2712
Location: Los Angeles
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MonT3
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Joined: January 07, 2012
Posts: 1988
Location: South Dakota
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racoguy
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Joined: May 15, 2010
Posts: 687
Location: new zealand
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Last one done, ended up using the hot air gun and heater together on this one which worked good enough to get er done.
Did a test run first to see how the two heating methods compared and the heat gun was faster on that end so I just lowered the fan speed a little to compensate.
Most of the sheet got to 150 deg C pretty evenly, placed it over the table straight this time and the extra vacuum made a little difference too.
In all just a nice as the last one but probably a bit easier, I think i'll have to get another heater for the upper and lower dash.
Installed on the door to let it take it's shape over night, paint tomorrow.
My lower dash looks to be in ok shape, just a few cracks and uneven lines which I'll try to repair otherwise I'll just make a new one.
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racoguy
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2010
Posts: 687
Location: new zealand
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:09 am Post subject: |
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What type of window cranks should I have and what style buffers?
I have about a half dozen cranks but none have nice knobs which I'm not adverse to making from aluminium and painting ivory.
*edit* found it. |
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Clatter
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Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7549
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Fine work.
Way to innovate!
I don't know how you do it, not mocking things up just to stare at them.
More self-control than i have, for sure..
Of course, yes, that's how things get damaged, more often than not, during these mock-ups.
But,
Can't wait to see the whole panel all built up!
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Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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racoguy
Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2010
Posts: 687
Location: new zealand
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:01 am Post subject: |
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LOL Clatter, never really thought about it that way.
I've never really done that, I always think about it (sometimes for a VERY VERY long time) and the various potential problems I could run into and once I think I have it sussed I'll just go for it and give it a shot.
Its like the dash top, since the vacuum forming was a success I've been thinking about how I'm going to make the new dash pad this last week and I believe I've got a pretty good idea now...............lets see if it works.
Only in recent years have I made templates from cardboard and probably nowhere near as much as I should, sometimes I think it'll be a waste of time and I'll just eyeball it and go from there.
You and me both so here it is, RH side completed minus a couple of small items, I don't know where all this enthusiasm has come from but I'll roll with it while it's around.
Door and 1/4 pads installed after rust proofing the entire 1/4 panel and door along with the rocker which also meant I could finally put the long trim on again, last time that was on the car it was completely beat to sh*t!
On a side note the fuel system has been on my mind as well, we have some pretty nasty fuel here which rots fuel hose in no time, especially on cars like this which sit around a lot so to over come this I've decided to run plastic lines for supply and return from a Golf GTI, hey they're gratis and still keep it in the family.
With the clever clip together fittings they have they are already set up for a fuel filter and pump and will flow enough for the 2.0 turbo.
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tanhis
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2005
Posts: 655
Location: Rauma Finland
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| Posted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:10 am Post subject: |
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I have no idea what is in the fuel nowadays but it seems to rot even the fuel lines that are rated to work whit these modern % ethanol fuels.
For example I had a non mechanical (no external damage) fuel line leak in my t34 after winter storage. Fuel lines were replaced 2years ago to the type that was rated for fuels that contain ethanol.
As a sidenote fuels in finland have 5-10% ethanol in them E95 = up to 10% ethanol and E98 up to 5% ethanol.
So I replaced all the lines to this type that should take 100% ethanol and regular gas as well. As fuel leaks are always scary and one of the main reasons why I have a fire extinguisher in the car all the time.
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-58 Typ2 ambulance
-62 Typ 34
-65 Typ 34
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-69 typ 2, 9 seater
-89 vanagon camper conversion matkaaja
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Walter64
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Joined: December 06, 2013
Posts: 146
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Can I ask what have you done to restore the engine lid?
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66 RHD teak T34 karmann |
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