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thesatelliteguy Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2007 Posts: 1515 Location: Santa Rosa CA
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Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 11:16 pm Post subject: Need help flat towing |
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Im leaving tomorrow around 6am california time and need some advice for towing.
I have a 69' baja bug im towing with my '06 Tacoma.
I have only flat towed my bug once, when i brought my Tacoma home. It did two things:
1) Tugged and pushed forwards and backwards as i was traveling down the road. Im sure it wasnt in gear and all the connections were good, there was a little slop in the hitch reciever to hitch connection (about 1/8") and some slop in the tow bar to beam connection. but the tow bar requires a 2" ball and i have a 2 inch ball.
2) Tonight while doing a test run i was coming up a hill from a dead stop and it started to pull left to right. I accelerated (as i have seen done before while flat towing a bug) but that didnt help.
So im wondering, are these symptoms normal?
Is it safe to tow for some camping tomorrow? _________________ Toyotas are so bumpy it makes me sick, literally.
My build Page http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=383878 |
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thesatelliteguy Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2007 Posts: 1515 Location: Santa Rosa CA
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Bret2094 Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2012 Posts: 665 Location: Linden, Texas or College Station Texas
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Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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The left and right motion is called fishtailing. Using a small truck to tow a beetle is not optimal because they are relatively close to the same weight. Unfortunately, you can not change a key aspect in sway while flat towing, namely the tongue weight. It is notable to mention that this sway left and right worsens as you increase speed. If you had a larger truck , you could reach greater speeds before safety would be affected while pulling the bug, however driving over 55 on a flat tow in your situation could prove quite perilous to your health, and the drivers around you.
Please be careful when towing anything, especially when you are prone to sway. Drive slow and careful, and do not brake quickly if at all possible. slow down and speed up gradually to make the ride as smooth and sway free as possible. Just another quick note: do not try to back up with a flat tow, it doesn't work!
Have a safe trip
Bret _________________ 1959 baja beetle ragtop( going back to Full body)
1959 beetle
1960 Beetle frame Custom buggy
1962 Karmann Ghia
1967 beetle( august 66, first car)
1967 beetle (parts car)
1977 Westfalia Camper
1972 Plymouth Duster
Just another 22 year old jackass who caught the bug, and lives by the motto " NO fatchicks allowed" , I've got too many cars as is (buses N/A) |
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thesatelliteguy Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2007 Posts: 1515 Location: Santa Rosa CA
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Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the reply. So what your saying is more tongue weight will decrease the fish tailing? Like if i just towed it on a trailer?
I had it up to 60 mph with no problems tonight. This makes me nervous. I put a Subi motor in it about a year ago and havent taken it out camping yet. I really want to take it along but i also dont want to loose the dam thing on the highway. _________________ Toyotas are so bumpy it makes me sick, literally.
My build Page http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=383878 |
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Bret2094 Samba Member
Joined: March 22, 2012 Posts: 665 Location: Linden, Texas or College Station Texas
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Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Too much tongue weight can be a bad thing as well. If I remember correctly , something like 15-20% of the weight on the tongue works best, Its all about weight distribution. Other things affect sway as well, like tire psi in the bug, crosswinds, and half a dozen others. As a general rule, trailering is a better idea, but you do also have to realize that that is additional weight that you will be pulling as well. Many folks on the forums use a tow bar without issue, but you just have to exercise caution. Avoid using the damn cell phone and fiddling with other distractions that we have become accustomed to, so that you have situational awareness and can act should something go wrong. Also those magnetic trailer lights work wonders for towing stuff. I would get a set if you can for the future. Also make sure the lugs on the bug are tight. I pulled my 72 Plymouth duster home a while back on a dolly and almost lost a tire due to loose lugs. It got real squirely so i pulled over just in time.
Frequent paranoid stops are much better than never checking at all.
Don't let all this scare you, you can probably have a worry free weekend iif you just take precautions
Bret _________________ 1959 baja beetle ragtop( going back to Full body)
1959 beetle
1960 Beetle frame Custom buggy
1962 Karmann Ghia
1967 beetle( august 66, first car)
1967 beetle (parts car)
1977 Westfalia Camper
1972 Plymouth Duster
Just another 22 year old jackass who caught the bug, and lives by the motto " NO fatchicks allowed" , I've got too many cars as is (buses N/A) |
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Iguana Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2008 Posts: 922 Location: SOCAL
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Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 12:35 am Post subject: |
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I wouldn't call a Tacoma a light weight and towing a flat tow trailing arm cars should have next to no ball weight as you are towing them on all 4 wheels not lifting the front. The only weight on the ball with be that of the A-Frame.
69 Baja Bug .. ..... does it have keys in the ignition ? ie is your steering lock on ?
How loose is the steering ?
It sounds to me like the wheels are fighting your tow vehicle and not following happily along. The reason VW's tow so well is that the trailing arm design gives itself to follow well frontwards, sucks to reverse.
I would be checking out the steering and confirming it isn't locked.
Also keep in mind when you flat tow the main kicker is if there is slope in the tie rods. As long as both wheels are moving together it will find its own happy place unless your alignment is up the duff.
More to the point if it has a Subi engine why aren't you driving it ? |
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thesatelliteguy Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2007 Posts: 1515 Location: Santa Rosa CA
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Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 7:24 am Post subject: |
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So much for leaving at 6am
It dsnt have a locking steering column so that shouldnt be an issue.
Two vehicles are better then one. Plus i just got my truck and want to enjoy it. _________________ Toyotas are so bumpy it makes me sick, literally.
My build Page http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=383878 |
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Dale M. Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006 Posts: 20365 Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 7:46 am Post subject: |
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Tongue weight only comes into effect when you use a trailer whose wheels are at approximately at middle (or under center of weight distribution) has no effect on flat tow...
Slop in receiver is normal and some what disturbing but not usually a problem if all part of tow system are in good shape... You learn to live it or get a device that stops the insert/receiver chatter....
http://www.etrailer.com/Accessories-and-Parts/Rage-Powersports/ANTI-TILT-REV.html
Make your own?...
Yes the weight will tug some what going uphill and push somewhat going down hill... Its called gravity...
Slop in tow bar at bug attachment can probably be remedied by removing open space (slop) in components, but get it to tight it can get problematical to connect up...
If front wheel alignment is good it should follow just fine...
Dale _________________ “Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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enjoyther1de Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2010 Posts: 1279 Location: chino,ca
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Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Does it only swerve at low speeds and around corners? I ask because I had a similar problem and I fixed by hooking a bungee cord around the steering wheel to the bottom of the seat to control the tires swapping left to right. _________________ HBB took me to BBV. |
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enjoyther1de Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2010 Posts: 1279 Location: chino,ca
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Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Bret2094"]Too much tongue weight can be a bad thing as well. If I remember correctly , something like 15-20% of the weight on the tongue works best, Its all about weight distribution.
Technically speaking there is no tonge weight with a tow bar. The bug will not be affected by the weight distribution as a trailer would. _________________ HBB took me to BBV. |
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dirtkeeper Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2008 Posts: 3200 Location: Left of everywhere
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Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="enjoyther1de"]
Bret2094 wrote: |
Too much tongue weight can be a bad thing as well. If I remember correctly , something like 15-20% of the weight on the tongue works best, Its all about weight distribution.
Technically speaking there is no tonge weight with a tow bar. The bug will not be affected by the weight distribution as a trailer would. |
This may be so but mine tows a bit better when I load up the front. I think it keeps the front wheels from floating around as much. |
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enjoyther1de Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2010 Posts: 1279 Location: chino,ca
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Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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True, as does mine. Actually it rides very close to stock with a passenger and gear. _________________ HBB took me to BBV. |
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mtnroads Samba Member
Joined: December 06, 2006 Posts: 403 Location: Minkler, CA
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Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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have you checked the rear wheel alignment? had a similar problem with my Baja right after replacing the trans. above 45 it would start swaying and above 55 it was pulling the rear of my HHR around. I had towed it a lot with no trouble before. found rear tires towed out, figured it was shifting weight from one side to the other and pulling the rear of the bug (all the weight in the back) back and forth like a pendulum. adjusted rear tow to almost no tow in, could not quite get it to 0. towed like a champ after that.
_________________ pax
No Good Deed Goes Unpunished.... |
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thesatelliteguy Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2007 Posts: 1515 Location: Santa Rosa CA
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Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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enjoyther1de wrote: |
Does it only swerve at low speeds and around corners? I ask because I had a similar problem and I fixed by hooking a bungee cord around the steering wheel to the bottom of the seat to control the tires swapping left to right. |
Thats exactly what it was doing. It never did it at high speeds, only when i was turning sharply into a parking lot. Then the front wheels would start going left then right then left...I got it to stop by stopping and either getting out to straighten the wheels out or by turning really sharply on flat ground.
Here's and update about the trip:
Lots of fun! Beat the bug way too hard. Caught some air, landed hard and broke a rear brake line open when it bottomed out but didnt find out until i cam to the end of a straight away where i was jamming gears on (about 60mph). That ended ok. Then was booking it back to camp at about 50 mph through the wetlands/mud (didnt want to get stuck again) and hit an unexpected rut,road, then another rut and jammed the steering box upwards almost breaking the rubber steering coupler, causing some minor whip lash, caved in the bottom of the oil pan (stamped steel, its a subaru motor), bent the headlight brackets, bent the front bumper upwards, knocked speakers off my roll cage and shook me and my passenger up pretty good. Probably bent trailing arms in the back too but was able to tow it home until the tow bar broke. Yeah. After all that beating, the effin' tow bar breaks. A device with no moving mechanical components. The tube snapped right in the middle, right by a weld. No harm to my truck, no harm to my bug or any body's property. I got luck on that one.
What a weekend..... _________________ Toyotas are so bumpy it makes me sick, literally.
My build Page http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=383878 |
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earthquake Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2008 Posts: 3984 Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
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Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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If you are using a old fashion VW tow bar that goes on the front beam make sure to safety wire the clips on the pins, I have them fall out before, also those tow bars can break off the zerks on the beam.
I thought I heard that if you flat tow in California you must have insurance on the vehicle being towed, it may be required in other states too.
Casey _________________ 74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison] |
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thesatelliteguy Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2007 Posts: 1515 Location: Santa Rosa CA
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enjoyther1de Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2010 Posts: 1279 Location: chino,ca
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Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 6:42 am Post subject: |
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Probably an EMPI tow bar? _________________ HBB took me to BBV. |
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dustymojave Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 5802 Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Those beam mount tow bars should have a small lateral thrust tab at the bottom of the 'U' to keep them from hitting the zerks or otherwise moving laterally. If they are not there, add some or don't use that tow bar. I've owned and used one of those tow bars since 1973 and never had a problem with it. If the clips fall out of the pins, put them in from the top side, wire them in place, then go buy a pair of replacement clips from the hardware store. The local True Value and Ace stores here carry them. About $1 each. You could also get lynch pin clips, which do the same job with a pin to go through the hole, then have a spring circle to flip over and lock them in place. I like to install the pins from the back side of the 'U' so the clips are out front and easier to install.
If you lose a pin or 2, it's EZ and cheap to make replacements. I buy a 1/2" foundation j-bolt at the hardware store, you know...to attach the walls of a house to the concrete foundation. Measure the length needed, including enough for the retainer clip, cut the j-bolt there and de-burr the end. Drill a 5/32" hole for the clip and de-burr the hole. Cost is a couple of bucks. Work was a few minutes. Compare that to the $19.99 each I was quoted at a VW shop about 5 years ago. _________________ Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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