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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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 Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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When you guys suggest mig for sheet metal, I know shielded gas (GMAW) works, but are you saying flux core (FCAW) works as well?
| swavananda wrote: |
| Are you using flap wheels on your grinder to clean up the welds? |
No. Combo of cutting wheel, grinding wheel, and DA sander with heavy duty sandpaper. Would a flap wheel be much better?
| kman wrote: |
| Sheet metal parts are usually primed in e-coat which should at least be cleaned and scuffed prior to top coating. No need to completely remove. |
| c21darrel wrote: |
| Yes, remove cheap primer pre Masterseries. |
Black e-coat on channel will be degreased and scuffed. Gray primer on other panels will be removed. Been looking for a job for my kids!
| kman wrote: |
| You can fit grind/cut/trim untill the piece is fit properly and the seams are weldable. When you get it close put a couple of tack welds on the seams to hold it together. When your channels are in properly weld up the seams. It's part of the structure. |
I get the overall idea, but I think the devil will be in the details. Will share more soon.
Thanks all for this round of Q&A.
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1971 Ghia coupe. Assume I know nothing and you'll be pretty darn close to the truth. |
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djway3474
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2011
Posts: 2582
Location: The Real NDK So Cal
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Flux - NO gas mig or tig |
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kman
Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2005
Posts: 739
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| I've only used gas shielded. I don't know if flux core works well or not. |
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swavananda
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2009
Posts: 889
Location: Can o' Scruz
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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All points noted. Back to the work at hand... I'm still rebuilding the torsion cover area (specifically the front wall of the rear wheel well) but need to make sure the channel fit is right since the channel will butt right up to it.
QUESTION: Where do I need to cut/modify to fit the channel in?
The front of the channel lines up well with the pan bolt holes, but I am unable to line up the rear-most pan bolt hole... the channel needs to go INWARD about 1 cm more...
This INWARD movement seems to be obstructed by the lip on the inside of the B pillar so I am thinking of cutting the B pillar lip along the solid red line OR cutting the channel along the dashed line (which doesn't seem right)...
I also need the channel to move UPWARD to make space for the rubber seal under the channel and the rocker skin on top of the channel. So I plan to cut along the red line, but note it is currently cut already right where the sill plate would end (if that matters)...
So are these the right cuts? I thought I'd ask because I don't know if this type of fine-tuning is par for the course, plus it seems a wrong decision here could lead to door gap issues.
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kman
Samba Member
Joined: November 04, 2005
Posts: 739
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 4:05 am Post subject: |
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The way I see it is. Metal can be taken away and it can be put back. Do what you gotta do to make it fit.
Check your door fit often.
I would cut cut 2 slots along the 90 degree bends and the bend the metal up to make room for the rocker and rubber etc. rather than cut more off.
Take your rubber and plastic trim off and get it out of the way.
Sometimes a BFH is your friend. Sometimes it makes more work. |
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cracker666
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2012
Posts: 156
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue May 12, 2015 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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I had to cut the post back anout the same as you have marked.
It didnt seem right, just goes to show how accurate the replacement panels are not.
remember to tack and check for clearance on door gaps etc. |
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2015 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| kman wrote: |
| I would cut cut 2 slots along the 90 degree bends and the bend the metal up to make room for the rocker and rubber etc. rather than cut more off. |
| cracker666 wrote: |
| I had to cut the post back anout the same as you have marked. |
Thanks for the tips. Glad to hear I'm not the only one experiencing this. But for now, change of plans.
I was going to rebuild the torsion cover area and immediately weld the channel to it (as well as the A pillar). Upon further research, that could have very bad consequences re: door fit. So as "cool karman collected" demonstrated in http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...p;start=20 the best sequence seems generally to be:
- Weld the channel to A pillar.
- Remove door brace.
- Check door fit with rocker skin.
- And only then, weld channel to B pillar and rear torsion cover area.
So I need to be focusing on the A pillar at this point, which leads me to this... QUESTION: Can the complete dogleg (top & bottom) be replaced with the body on?
Average joes... close your eyes! This is starting to get painful. I cut out the straight section of the dogleg because it was rusted inside, particularly on the triangular "floor" which you can see here. I figured it was reasonable to attempt fabbing that "floor" section without replacing the whole dogleg...
The curved section seemed fine...
And peeking inside, it doesn't look that bad. The nearest part that is rusty is the triangular floor that would be replaced anyway...
BUT... I took my telescoping magnet to clean out all the metal shavings and as I reached further and further back, little rust flakes continued coming out...
I THINK most of the rust flakes were blown in while I was cutting, but if the complete dogleg can be replaced with the body on, I might pony up more $ for a repop and grow the scope of this project. Maybe it'd actually be easier than fabbing the section I butchered. Thoughts???
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Decision: I plan to just rebuild the dogleg section I cut out instead of putting in a whole new dogleg. As I investigate more, the condition seems really good. PHEW! Would still be nice if you had comments to my above question.
Moving on, I am back-burnering this current "step 13". I was going to rebuild the inner wall of the torsion cover area, but I figured out this should wait til later. So...
The NEW Step 13: Remove old pan seal
This may be an easy no-brainer step, but it took enough time and elbow grease that I think it warrants to be called out. The old pan seal was really goopy and there seems to have been adhesive that got really stuck on the metal.
I don't have experience with "real" painting but I've done enough rattle can work to still know that it's all in the prep work. So I took my time:
- Scrape using an old piece of the channel that was fashioned into a scraper. Note that the pan has grooves and indentations you have to really dig into.
- Use mineral spirits as a solvent and wipe as clean as I could.
- Repeat a few times.
- Then DA sander.
Here it is now...
And here is where it was...
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Sat May 16, 2015 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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Step 14: Rebuild dogleg bottom
Somehow, rust seems to have formed IN BETWEEN the dogleg wall and the front wheel well. Not sure how that happened but fortunately it appeared to be just a small section...
After cutting that out as well as the rusty parts of the dogleg bottom plate, it took all morning to fabricate these. Thanks to my wife for running the kids around and giving me the day to focus. No special tools were used. Just my handy grinder, an adjustable wrench, a half-round file, and some grip strength...
Test fitting looks pretty good...
It took a lot of trial and error, and it was one of those points where you just stare at it, with your hands on your hips, and wonder what you need to do. Well, I just got my sheet metal and started cutting and took it one little step at a time. It's also uncomfortable working in that tight corner, so if I wasn't detail oriented, had a bad back or weak forearms, I might have given up at this step, but I actually enjoyed it! I am feel pretty good now that I have an idea how this section is going to come together.
I think my next step will be to take my first stab at using phosphoric acid to clean out the surface rust and then applying Masterseries on the dogleg sections I won't be able to access once these pieces are welded. Then weld this little puzzle together... and I haven't even gotten to the crux of this project 
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c21darrel
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Joined: January 22, 2009
Posts: 8211
Location: San Dimas
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Fri May 22, 2015 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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Little progress to the car. I will need to do plug welds soon so I started practicing only to realize it's not as easy as I thought with a stick welder. And there are hardly any online resources... I guess that says something.
But I got a tip that slot welding is a much easier and effective method than plug welding when using a stick welder. So I haven't touched the car... instead I've been experimenting... and experimenting... and experimenting. Though it hurts seeing the car remain on blocks, I think this is the only way I would've put in the welding time and I am indeed getting a better "feel".
In the meantime, I just couldn't let the week pass without any progress to the car. My daughter is a fantastic painter... of princesses, butterflies, houses, things that kinders tend to have in their imagination... so I figured "painting" a car would be an easy transition. She can sit at her project table, quietly, completely content, for over an hour.
So I put some gloves on her and let her loose with the silver Masterseries on the pan lip. She did a great job, saying "Ooh, it smells good" and is asking to do more! Oh yes, girl, there WILL be more! I now trust her to do this job but I don't think I'd let her older brothers near the paint brush.
Btw, before this, I did apply the phosphoric acid and rinse with wet paper towels. I got the acid in the form of Loctite Naval Jelly from my local Ace because 1) it was at my local Ace, 2) I read the jelly-like consistency is easier to use than liquid like Ospho (true) and 3) it came in a smaller/cheaper bottle than Ospho and I wasn't sure how much I'd need.
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CiderGuy
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Joined: December 23, 2013
Posts: 1351
Location: Bucks County, Pa
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 10:42 am Post subject: |
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Very cute ! When my two were little, I had them paint a post and rail fence with redwood stain to "earn" money to buy the go cart I bought them.... my daughter and son got into a paint fight. Took a week to get all the paint off of them. It's now a good memory ....
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Cars Currently Owned:
1970 Karmann Ghia Coupe
1973 Karmann Ghia Coupe - Project car for sale
1970 Karmann Ghia Convertible (Body off restoration)
Timing is everything |
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 12:24 am Post subject: |
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It's all about the memories, kids or not, isn't it!
Ciderguy, I just noticed your signature. 3 Ghias?! If those are your ONLY cars, consider me very impressed. Even if not, still very cool. I dabble with the idea of getting a vert too but that feels foolish while projecting my current coupe. Maybe one day!
On another note... QUESTION: It's been a couple months now with the car sitting there, not having been started at all. I suspect this project will take at least another few months. What is the best strategy to keep the engine alive? Will the battery be drained already? Should I be revving the engine for X minutes every Y days? Or what?
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CiderGuy
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Joined: December 23, 2013
Posts: 1351
Location: Bucks County, Pa
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| J1 wrote: |
It's all about the memories, kids or not, isn't it!
Ciderguy, I just noticed your signature. 3 Ghias?! If those are your ONLY cars, consider me very impressed. Even if not, still very cool. I dabble with the idea of getting a vert too but that feels foolish while projecting my current coupe. Maybe one day!
On another note... QUESTION: It's been a couple months now with the car sitting there, not having been started at all. I suspect this project will take at least another few months. What is the best strategy to keep the engine alive? Will the battery be drained already? Should I be revving the engine for X minutes every Y days? Or what? |
She made me sell my jeep wrangler to get the last Ghia, and I had to buy a 12x26 shed/garage for her "stuff". My car limit is 4.....
Our 3 car garage isn't enough. I have another car and I am selling one of the Ghia's. I always wanted a vert and its in better shape then I thought it was in when I bought.
I would start the car and buy a trickle charger.
_________________
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Cars Currently Owned:
1970 Karmann Ghia Coupe
1973 Karmann Ghia Coupe - Project car for sale
1970 Karmann Ghia Convertible (Body off restoration)
Timing is everything |
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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Chalk up another rookie move. I never had a car before that stood idle for more than a few days, so I didn't bother starting the engine or addressing battery drain. Took me ONLY 2 months for it to come to mind... well, actually it did cross my mind before, but I never did anything. And now it's dead. I don't know whether it is salvageable, but I ordered the Battery Tender Jr to avoid this mistake in the future.
On the plus side, it reminded me to order a portable battery-operated fan to put in the Ghia for the hot summers. I guess I'm optimistic the car will be road worthy in the next few months. Maybe I should've ordered the Battery Tender earlier... and the fan later. 
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c21darrel
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Location: San Dimas
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Still logging some welding practice before trying to put this dogleg back together.
In the meantime, my assistant has put on a second coat of Masterseries on the pan lip. I know the rest of the pan in this photo looks super rusty, especially next to the nice clean silver, but I think the lighting is exaggerating it. We'll probably just clean and MS that too while the channel is out...
Now my assistant has moved on to scuffing the heater channel in prep for the MS. She seems to enjoy this just as much as painting. I really have a focused helper on my hands!
To my surprise, I can get to bare metal pretty easily. A few firm strokes with the 220 grit will eat up this fancy "e-coat". What bothers me though is that these channels rust from the inside out and it seems very difficult to scuff up, much less MS the inside, with any level of thoroughness. Not only is this a long channel, but there are all those indentations, creases, nuts, and drain holes.
Seems like it's worth spending a little time with a long stick and try to scuff, clean, and MS... right  I'm guessing some extra elbow grease and detailing may add years even decades to this section. Maybe this is when a sprayer could come in handy.
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c21darrel
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J1
Samba Member
Joined: February 10, 2014
Posts: 698
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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Prior to starting this project, I had been practicing to butt weld sheet metal with my stick welder. I felt pretty confident, so I put the car on blocks and the grinder to the car.
I don't have a spot welder, so I should've practiced plug (or slot) welding too but I assumed it'd be easy  The idea is to weld one piece of sheet metal laying ON TOP of another. This is important because a lot of spot/plug/slot welding is needed for the dogleg, channel, y tube, lambchop, etc. even before I get to the butt welding, which is mostly on the outer skin.
Well here's how 90 percent of my practice slot welds look (it is actually 2 holes punched adjacent to each other, which is my chosen method of creating "slots" at this point)...
And every now and then, I get lucky with something like this. I'll put the welder to the car once my batting avg improves...
On the left is 1 batch that I practiced with. On the right is another batch I will hack away at... again...
The point is... if you're a stick welding rookie and plan to replicate my project, practice these slot welds BEFORE putting your car on blocks! It feels like a puzzle and I'm trying to unlock the perfect combination of settings and technique. Fun in that sense and I think I'm close, but I certainly want to start making real progress.
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