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Apogi Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 11 Location: Washington State
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Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 1:59 am Post subject: Liquid Coolant based Heater System for 1600 air cooled |
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I have access to a huge amount of old marine boat parts. I haven't drilled the motor yet to do a full flow oil upgrade. My idea is to use a marine heat exchanger kinda backwards. Run the tube exchanger with engine oil, Found a hot water circulation pump on Amazon for under $20, run PEX water lines up the pass side heater tube to a standard heater core. I have the heater box from a older Ram pickup for fan assist. I think I can control the temp output by speeding or slowing the circulation pump. Any Idea's? The heat exchanger I'm usng is from a old fishing boat It's brass about 14" long 3" diam. Plan to mount it just under the deck lid hinges, behind the Doghouse.
BTW just bought this 1979 super beetle man is it in great shape. The Dad had bought the car to give to his daughter she was 11, she was 28 when I bought it bout a month ago.[/url] |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 4:45 am Post subject: |
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Ok I will ask...
why not just make the factory heat work? |
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kamesama980 Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2014 Posts: 323 Location: Columbus, IN
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Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 6:21 am Post subject: |
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If you have the parts for free, it'll make a good project. I wonder if you'd over-cool the oil... I mean the stock oil-air heat exchanger isn't that big and there isn't a whole lot of oil to cool. water (antifreeze mixture) holds a lot more heat per volume than oil and your system will probably hold more coolant than oil.
heat exchangers work best with a higher temperature difference (Delta temp or dT). That means you won't have any effective heat transfer till the oil's hot then you still have to wait till the coolant is hot before it produces a measurable effect in the cabin.
How are you going to deal with the extra heat when you don't want it in the cabin? You'll still need to cool the oil.
so you need a thermostatic control on the oil/water heat exchanger, thermostatic control (and maybe a fan?) on a oil/air heat exchanger. Put those in series withh the oil/water first. then you need a pump to circulate the coolant and another fan to blow air through the heater core. maybe some gauges and warning lights...
I agree that you'll probably get better heat out of the stock heater: Mine's plenty down to freezing or so and only one side works. Remember you want heat when the engine has the least to give. I think your project will be a bit rube-goldbergian and not overly effective but prove me wrong. _________________ -Russell
"You don't get to blame me for how I fix what you break"
1970 VW Beetle
1994 Pontiac Firebird
2001 BMW R1200C
2003 Subaru Baja |
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Apogi Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 11 Location: Washington State
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Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 9:54 am Post subject: |
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Actually this is why I posted this idea here. Thank you for your honest well informed critique. I built a 411 sedan years ago from a 411 and a 412. My girlfriend at the time crashed it just after a 1200 mile road trip. So I am new to this world. I will do some math on the heat transfer to see if the BTU's are available. I had simply planed to not circulate the coolant water when the heat was not needed or install separate route for the coolant via 3 way valve. I think a expansion tank could absorb the coolant over heating if the circulation was stopped. The 79 super I bought was to just be a flip/ Mow I just can't sell it. And I haven't even drove it yet. |
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Apogi Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 11 Location: Washington State
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Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 9:58 am Post subject: |
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The 411 built had very little available heat maybe I had done something wrong. If you say the stock heater is effective I'll make it work first.
Thanks for the input. I am nearly done converting to carb's. The interior is almost sound proofed. I'll put the carpet and seats back in in a week or so. I need a dash. 79 seems impossible to find a good dash for. |
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TheAmazingDave Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2013 Posts: 788 Location: San Jose, CA
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Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 10:23 am Post subject: |
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I had a similar idea, but it involved cutting holes through the fins on the factory heat exchangers, and running tubing through/around them to heat a liquid, and then plumbing that to a pump and heater core. _________________ Just call me Big D. (formerly xBigDx408x)
TheAmazingDave.net
Deutschland Dubs 2015 at Presidio Trust |
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Apogi Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 11 Location: Washington State
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Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 11:15 am Post subject: |
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My original plan was to put a stainless coil inside the muffler. I thought the oil via exchanger heat would be a more positive source but I may still try the exhaust coil. Unless I spend the $950 for the exhaust I'm considering. Then I don't think I'd be to quick to mod it. lol |
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theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
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Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:35 am Post subject: |
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I have heard of people planning on making the stock heating system recirculating but not seen a completed system. How about furthering the cause. Maybe taking the most prominent cheap way out of the factory system is all it takes. _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask. |
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jhicken Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2003 Posts: 9466 Location: Fallbrook, CA
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Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Is this on the '79?
-jeffrey _________________ Der Kleiner Kampfwagens |
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Joel Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2006 Posts: 11099 Location: NSW Australia
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Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 2:55 am Post subject: |
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theKbStockpiler wrote: |
I have heard of people planning on making the stock heating system recirculating but not seen a completed system. |
THere were kits in the early 90s that put a bus style heater fan inside the rear parcel tray and ran the hoses into the engine bay to the heaterboxes instead of the stock shroud hoses so it was a recirculating system but trouble with that setup it was cooking engines as when the fan was off there was no airflow through the heaterboxes like stock to stop them heating up the heads. _________________ Quick little bug, you got a Porsche motor in that?
1974 Germanlook 1303 2.5 Suba-Beetle |
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morymob Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2007 Posts: 4683 Location: east-tn
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Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 5:13 am Post subject: |
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I think recirc/reheat inside air 4 best use of eng heat source. A tight exh would be necessary, an adjustable outside air to bleed some air in if needed, heating below freezing air over taxes but the latest sys whick uses all 4 cyls exhaust. My 73 super to be probably a full time runaround will likely get such if we have winters like the last, my2cts, as usual, no warranty offered at this time. |
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ROCKOROD71 Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012 Posts: 2770 Location: Boston, MA
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Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 6:06 am Post subject: |
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Joel wrote: |
theKbStockpiler wrote: |
I have heard of people planning on making the stock heating system recirculating but not seen a completed system. |
THere were kits in the early 90s that put a bus style heater fan inside the rear parcel tray and ran the hoses into the engine bay to the heaterboxes instead of the stock shroud hoses so it was a recirculating system but trouble with that setup it was cooking engines as when the fan was off there was no airflow through the heaterboxes like stock to stop them heating up the heads. |
Why wouldn't it just run all the time and dump out the top of the heater box when you close the flaps to the cabin? I mean, you'd be replacing a dead fan every couple of years but.... _________________ 1971 STD BEETLE- DD-1st car, 1st love. keepin' it stock! 1600DP, Solex 34-3 Mexi Bosch SVDA Dist NOW w/POINTS
1977 WESTY "KrustyKamper" 2L FI
79SuperVert wrote: |
30 years from now, the next guy may not want your girlfriend, but he may want your classic car, depending on how nice you were to it. |
asiab3 wrote: |
Careful guys, a petulant child can grow up to be president these days. |
**winter drivers: no survivors!**rust warrior**#keepbodyshopsbusy** |
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kamesama980 Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2014 Posts: 323 Location: Columbus, IN
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Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Apogi wrote: |
Actually this is why I posted this idea here. Thank you for your honest well informed critique. I built a 411 sedan years ago from a 411 and a 412. My girlfriend at the time crashed it just after a 1200 mile road trip. So I am new to this world. I will do some math on the heat transfer to see if the BTU's are available. I had simply planed to not circulate the coolant water when the heat was not needed or install separate route for the coolant via 3 way valve. I think a expansion tank could absorb the coolant over heating if the circulation was stopped. The 79 super I bought was to just be a flip/ Mow I just can't sell it. And I haven't even drove it yet. |
You'll need an expansion tank either way. I'm not worried about the coolant overheating, I mean that without another route to remove BTUs, once the coolant gets hot, it'll start getting hot and own't cool the oil and the engine will roast, That's why I said put two thermostatic valves in series, first to the coolant/cabin heat exchanger then to the standalone cooler. If the cabin heater can't pull out enough heat or isn't turned on to pull out the BTUs the backup cooler still has enough capacity to keep from roasting the engine oil.
The 3-way valve would be another good option, one way it circulates to the heater, the other way it circulates to an external cooler. _________________ -Russell
"You don't get to blame me for how I fix what you break"
1970 VW Beetle
1994 Pontiac Firebird
2001 BMW R1200C
2003 Subaru Baja |
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Apogi Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 11 Location: Washington State
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Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 10:00 am Post subject: more idea's |
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Man thanks for all the responses. I think the engine oil will be best serviced by the existing doghouse cooler. I also have access to a few 20'
lengths of 1/2" stainless tubing. Maybe a stainless header with the 1/2" tubing la along the arms then header wrapped over both. I can experiment with how many feet of header tube contact the circulation tube needs to constant heat. That way it is innocuous to the rest of the system but still absorb enough energy to be effective The new lava rock based wraps are suppose to be much better than the sand based fiberglass was. Yes a expansion tank will be required. A good radiator cap too. A 11 lb cap suppresses boiling to about 230 I think. Can anyone verify the actual number? Quality pair of disconnects To let me still drop the engine. A bypass system that can independently switch the flow to a outside cooler will have to be installed, I'm thinking the interior of those wraps is probably A BIT TOASTY
I think a solenoid valve that opened when you turned the heater fan on diverting the flow to the inside core. That way it automatically switches from the inside core to the outside coil. And either way it is always circulating thru one of them. Maybe a reachable bypass valve to allow partial flow to the outer coil to control temp. when the system is on. |
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Volks Wagen Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2013 Posts: 2926 Location: Germany
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Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds kind of complicated. _________________ 1973 1303 with AB-motor - sporadic
reconstruction as time permits, 1986 ex-Bundeswehr Doka - on the road again.
I'm definitely, probably, the worlds greatest lover.
Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile. |
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Apogi Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 11 Location: Washington State
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Posted: Sun May 31, 2015 4:26 pm Post subject: boil suppression at 11lbs |
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Anyone know the temp the coolant has to reach to boil at 11 lbs preessure? |
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kamesama980 Samba Member
Joined: June 22, 2014 Posts: 323 Location: Columbus, IN
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:31 am Post subject: |
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http://bfy.tw/6vW
What concentration of anti-freeze? What type of anti-freeze?
First page says 3psi per degree F but I can't say anything about it's credibility _________________ -Russell
"You don't get to blame me for how I fix what you break"
1970 VW Beetle
1994 Pontiac Firebird
2001 BMW R1200C
2003 Subaru Baja |
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Apogi Samba Member
Joined: May 25, 2015 Posts: 11 Location: Washington State
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:24 pm Post subject: 50/50 |
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50/50 mix of prestone the regular green stuff
Thanks for the help Question; I switched the 79 Super I bought tpo 40 IDF dual's Is the injection stuff I took off worth anything? |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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Just send that injection stuff to me...
Randy |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26743 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Coil of tubing the the muffler? You have designed a "flash boiler". Crazy! |
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