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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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 Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:49 am Post subject: 411 and 412 centerlink rebuild document download and test |
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The document is finally done. Its in a word document and this version is in compatibility mode.
Please let me know if you have any issues with confusing or out of order sections or problems down loading or viewing.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/thv8ixj5epxtnm8/vw%20411...e.doc?dl=0
Ray |
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Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 783
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Ray, just downloaded the doc with no issues at all, text and pictures all seems to be where they should be and, best of all, this doc will give me answers on the all 100 questions I had in doing the centerlink rebuild!
Many,many thanks ray!
/Lars s
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver 
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold 
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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The idler bushing revamp could come next...although that one is obvious enough that I may wait.
I have all of the pictures done for the DIY at home Delrin control arm bushings with subframe mods for camber/castor adjustment....and making track control arm/radius arm donuts. I may make that one next.
Yes...I think I will do that. I will save the idler and steering box rebuilds for 2nd to last. I have all the pics done for them.
Next month I will be receiving rebuildable balljoints for 1982 corvette and will be either having my control arms reamed to a new taper angle (or doing it on my drill press..we will see)....then having adapter/mount blocks machined to allow bolting up the joints...thereby solving the problem of replaceable balljoints and ball joint boots in one operation. Ray |
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Pelle
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2004
Posts: 199
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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How common is this problem? I had several different 411/412 as daily drivers during the 80-90:ies. Drove a lot of km and never had any bad centerlinks. A friend of mine did rebuild one of my previous cars and used as many new parts we could find (including the centerlink).
Recently I bought a 411, my first with a bad centerlink. So now I have three options,
A rebuild the link following Rays recipe
B install a NOS link and assume that it lasts as long and good as the originals did in the past
C install the used one my friend replaced with a NOS. It's still tight and it's an original VW.
I've read what Ray says, but how fast will it deteriorate? If it survives 5 years I'm happy. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Pelle wrote: |
How common is this problem? I had several different 411/412 as daily drivers during the 80-90:ies. Drove a lot of km and never had any bad centerlinks. A friend of mine did rebuild one of my previous cars and used as many new parts we could find (including the centerlink).
Recently I bought a 411, my first with a bad centerlink. So now I have three options,
A rebuild the link following Rays recipe
B install a NOS link and assume that it lasts as long and good as the originals did in the past
C install the used one my friend replaced with a NOS. It's still tight and it's an original VW.
I've read what Ray says, but how fast will it deteriorate? If it survives 5 years I'm happy. |
Way back when.....How would you have known if the centerlink was bad?
It cannot be checked while it is installed on the car.
Also typically the average owner will not really know that the centerlink has slack in it....and generally attribute most of the minor (at this point in time) issues it causes.....to normal characteristics of the car or tires (which is not true).
.........this is ...until the idler arm bushing is destroyed....and then the steering gets so bad that it hastens the damage to the centerlink.....but most owners replace the idler arm bushing just assuming that the bad steering was from the noticeably bad idler arm bushing....when its usually from the idler arm bushing and centerlink combined.
Yes....they are all this way. There was only one make of VW 411/412 centerlink. They were all made by TRW I believe.
Every part you find will be TRW and its been this way back to 1978...and they come out of the TRW box with the nice VW stamped rubber bushing pressed in.
The part # is DS 858. Usually they are not hard to find.
They all work nicely...and will for a while. Usually about 30-50k miles before issues. In hot/wet combined weather like the Southern US and central southwest (Texas, Oklahoma etc,)....expect 30k miles.
The issue is the type of nylon...a sign of the times.
If you want to keep changing them and paying $85-125 per part....and putting up with any damage to other parts in the process.....then the stock part is just fine. It really depends on how much you drive and how easy the stock part will be to find when you next need it again.
The easiest way would be to buy a new or used one now if you dont have a spare...and rebuild it while you drive on the other one
The real issue is not will it last 5 years and you are happy....an NOS one will probably do that if you dont drive much....the issue is that when it wears out its hard on everything attached to it and vice versa......and howw new are all of the other parts that are attached to the centerlink?....bet they were a lot newer back then.
Either way....Ray |
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Pelle
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2004
Posts: 199
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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We have yearly mandatory car inspections in Sweden. All suspension components are thoroughly checked. If they fail you have to replace them and come back for a new inspection. Had a 411 in the late 80:ies which had a bad idler bushing. When I replaced it I also checked the centerlink which was as tight as a new one.
Anyway you answered my question. Back in the day I would buy a Type 4 with less than a 100k km and drive it daily until it became too rusty. Never had any bigger mechanical issues only rust. This car will probably only be driven in the summertime and not on a daily basis maybe 3000 miles/year so the NOS centerlink I have may last as long as 10 years. During those years I can rebuild the bad one. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Pelle wrote: |
We have yearly mandatory car inspections in Sweden. All suspension components are thoroughly checked. If they fail you have to replace them and come back for a new inspection. Had a 411 in the late 80:ies which had a bad idler bushing. When I replaced it I also checked the centerlink which was as tight as a new one.
Anyway you answered my question. Back in the day I would buy a Type 4 with less than a 100k km and drive it daily until it became too rusty. Never had any bigger mechanical issues only rust. This car will probably only be driven in the summertime and not on a daily basis maybe 3000 miles/year so the NOS centerlink I have may last as long as 10 years. During those years I can rebuild the bad one. |
Yes....you will be fine either way becausd if it fails sooner....you can just buy another or rebuild one that you have. Dont discard your old one. Its a good core.
The issue with inspections....is that unless the centerlink is removed from the car. Or at least from one end of its linkage.....either from the idler arm or the steering drop arm.....your local inspectors would have no way of inspecting the center link for damage or wear.
Usually at leasr 50% of the time.....if you had to have an idler bushing replaced.....that means that they have to at least remove the idper arm from the idler bracket. If the mechanic is paying attention they should catch any exessive angular play in either end of the center link.
The other thing to watch out for.m...as i noted. .....this is NOT simply a wear issue.....meaning you cannot simply expect these parts to give "x" miles of service.
In PERFECT service conditions. ...they can give 30-50k miles......some give more. The thing that kills the centerlink internal bushings is NOT milage......its water.
The outer seals were a decent design but poor material. If they leak even once and get water into contact with the nylon......the death warrant is signed.
The defect of Nylon 6....is that it absorbs water. When it absorbs water....it destroys itself. I have had centerlinks fail in as little as 15k miles in wet humid climatea with high temps.
Just keep an eye on the outer seals. Ray |
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19super73
Hardcore Stock Nazi
Joined: October 18, 2007
Posts: 4351
Location: Cité Soleil
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titan3c
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Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| Forgive me for being slightly ignorant of all the terminology, but what is the center link? Maybe I've been calling it something else. Bob |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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The centerlink.....is also commonly referred to as the center tie rod. It is the cross bar looking part that both inner tie rod ends bolt into....and at each end of it is a tapered rotating pin. The pin on the right is bolted into the idler arm....the pin on the left is bolted into the pitman arm or steering box arm. Also near the right end...you steering dampner bolts into a rubber bushing eye on the center link.
It is a simple but critical part. It is supposed to be ....in effect a solid rod that connects the steering lever arm to the idler arm. It is supposed to remain rigid and level so that any minute movement you make to the steering wheel. ....which means to the steering gearbox. ...is transferred 1:1 to the two tie rods bolted to the center of this linkage...so you have precise steering. Its whole range of movement is designed to be pretty much side to side with only a small amount of arc change.
Any lifting movement (up or down out of a horizontal plane) or fore and aft movement of either end of the link not related to the rotating arc of the steering box....results in steering movement at the wheels that you did not intend. Ray |
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titan3c
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Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Ok, that's what I've been calling the center tie rod. Last year I installed a completely rebuilt steering including the steering box, I installed it as an assembly except for the steering box which I installed separately. Now I have a situation I'm not familiar with. The pitman arm is a compressed fit to the steering box, and don't know the proper technique for forcing it on there. I got the nut on but not far enough to ping it. Is it ok to hammer on the pitman arm, or will that damage the steering box? Bob |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| titan3c wrote: |
| Ok, that's what I've been calling the center tie rod. Last year I installed a completely rebuilt steering including the steering box, I installed it as an assembly except for the steering box which I installed separately. Now I have a situation I'm not familiar with. The pitman arm is a compressed fit to the steering box, and don't know the proper technique for forcing it on there. I got the nut on but not far enough to ping it. Is it ok to hammer on the pitman arm, or will that damage the steering box? Bob |
Where did you acquire a rebuilt steering box?....its not a hard task but not one left to experimentation. Not many if any rebuild houses would take it on for anything but a lot of money.
It requires no special tools except for a precise inch pound torque wrench and the specs for turning torque...and is very tedious.
I have rebuilt three...or actually refurbed...full disassembly, cleaning, adjustment and new seals. I just ask, because likely if someone is selling it as rebuilt...its not.
The pitman arm fits only one way. If you look closely there is one large or wide spline that is the locating key spline. Simply put some anti-seize compound on the splines...lightly....slip on the arm keyed correctly...put on the nut and tighten it down to correct torque. Mount the box in a vise with soft jaws or wood on both sides..so that the arm is held by the vise so that it cannot go to full lock. This will keep it from hurting anything inside.
The peening of the top collar of nut only takes a few pounds of force with a punch.
Also....the splines are not designed to go all the way into the arm. lot of spline will be showing between the arm and steering box. Do not hammer on the shaft. Ray |
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titan3c
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Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:59 am Post subject: |
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The problem I have got myself in is this. The box is already installed, and the rest of the steering is installed, but the pitman arm has to be installed on the box. I have it on there, and the nut is on, but I'm having trouble getting it to press on deep enough. I don't have enough arm strength. Perhaps as you say if I put some anti lock on the spline, and get a younger person with strength enough to turn it----When you get my age(90) you start loosing some of your strength
The box was rebuilt by a man in Oregon, Bill Kantz. He is another type 4 person. He rebuilt and sold several complete steering assemblies. I am well pleased with the one I bought. But for shipping convenience I had him ship the box separate from the rest of the system. Now I wish I had left it all put together. This has been a couple of years ago, and the steering is working fine, but I'm bothered that the arm is not all the way up on the box spline. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Take a picture. Also...the pitman arm should be installed before installing the box. Ray |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| titan3c wrote: |
The problem I have got myself in is this. The box is already installed, and the rest of the steering is installed, but the pitman arm has to be installed on the box. I have it on there, and the nut is on, but I'm having trouble getting it to press on deep enough. I don't have enough arm strength. Perhaps as you say if I put some anti lock on the spline, and get a younger person with strength enough to turn it----When you get my age(90) you start loosing some of your strength
The box was rebuilt by a man in Oregon, Bill Kantz. He is another type 4 person. He rebuilt and sold several complete steering assemblies. I am well pleased with the one I bought. But for shipping convenience I had him ship the box separate from the rest of the system. Now I wish I had left it all put together. This has been a couple of years ago, and the steering is working fine, but I'm bothered that the arm is not all the way up on the box spline. |
Its not supposed to be all the way up on the spline.
here is what it is supposed to look like
The nut only goes flush or a little more from the top so you peen only the edge of the lip into the slots
From the side.
Ray |
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titan3c
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Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
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| Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| Yep I know now I shouldn't have installed the box without the pitman arm. I know it doesn't go all the way on the spline, just far enough for the nut to be fully on. Since I'm where I am with it on but not all the way for the nut to be fully on, I will make another try to turn the nut further. I hate to have to take the box off again, but may have to. Give me enough time, and I will learn enough to be a type 4 mechanic. Really, I shouldn't have removed the original box. I still have it with the pitman arm installed, and it was working fine. The reworked one with all new looking parts, just "siked" me out. Bob |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| titan3c wrote: |
| Yep I know now I shouldn't have installed the box without the pitman arm. I know it doesn't go all the way on the spline, just far enough for the nut to be fully on. Since I'm where I am with it on but not all the way for the nut to be fully on, I will make another try to turn the nut further. I hate to have to take the box off again, but may have to. Give me enough time, and I will learn enough to be a type 4 mechanic. Really, I shouldn't have removed the original box. I still have it with the pitman arm installed, and it was working fine. The reworked one with all new looking parts, just "siked" me out. Bob |
Try this.....since the centerlink is not installed yet.....cut the steering box far enough over that you can insert a steel rod....a long ratchet extension bar will do....into the hole in the end of the pitman arm ....push it upward and then turn the steering box until the rod comes up against a body part wedging the rod in the hole and preventing the steering box from turning any further..
This will keep the worm gear from going all the way to the end of its stroke putting load on the ball bearings and worm nut.
Then get a large breaker bar and cheater pipe to attach to your socket and tighten the nut until it looks like the on in the picture. Thats pretty much all it will go.
this is how I did it when it was in the vise on my workbench. Ray |
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