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Clatter
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Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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 Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
The auxiliary air regulator has it's own thermo-time-switching setup. The main L-Jet thermo time switch does not affect the AAR.
I think you mean you want an AAR with a longer closing time? |
Dag. Thanks. Learn something new every day.
Duh.
Makes perfect sense when I think about it..
Where to find an AAR with a longer closing time?
Certainly a 'Real Car' with a big iron block would want more air for warm-up than our little small/thin/light aluminum aircoolers.
A longer AAR would be just the ticket for this issue AFAICT.
My CSV has been unplugged since about 1992 or so,
After it did the flood/strand thing on me a couple times.
It still does have the fuel line running to/from it though..
Maybe it's leaking, even though it's not plugged in? 
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:22 am Post subject: |
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not meaning any disrespect but the AAR is frozen, the CSV disconnected because it leaked, the plugs look like they have 30,000 miles on them, and you are wondering what needs to be changed to make the bus engine run right?
How about going thru the whole FI system and doing a refresh, making sure everything works right before chasing symptoms?
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WhirledTraveller
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Joined: January 09, 2008
Posts: 1399
Location: Cambridge, MA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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Do not trust the wideband o2 meter for a cold engine, There's a lot going on, incomplete combustion throwing out unburnt fuel and air, misfires, maybe late combustion in the header. These things throw off the reading. Tune it for warm running only. Then you can try the "nudge the wiper" trick on a cold engine and if it really wants to be leaner when cold I would use the resistor in parallel on the TS2.
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12721
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| WhirledTraveller wrote: |
| Do not trust the wideband o2 meter for a cold engine, There's a lot going on, incomplete combustion throwing out unburnt fuel and air, misfires, maybe late combustion in the header. These things throw off the reading. Tune it for warm running only… |
x2. It can show ultra lean when running super rich due to a misfire. Confusing and blunt, it is best suited for fine-tuning a warm engine.
Robbie
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
not meaning any disrespect but the AAR is frozen, the CSV disconnected because it leaked, the plugs look like they have 30,000 miles on them, and you are wondering what needs to be changed to make the bus engine run right?
How about going thru the whole FI system and doing a refresh, making sure everything works right before chasing symptoms? |
No disrespect taken, and a good way to look at it, thanks.
I'm a bit confused..
AAR 'frozen'? I don't understand.
When I did the test of unplugging it, it confirmed correct operation, right?
When unplugged, the motor starts nicely, and then idles faster and faster (until too fast), without the AAR closing to slow it down.
I have three, tried them all, and they all behave the same.
My problem is that it closes too quickly.
The CSV has been disconnected for years.
It was tested a couple of years ago to check that it doesn't drip.
Maybe it has started dripping.
it's unlikely to drip because it's never open..
I'll check it again, or, better yet, bypass it entirely.
The CSV is the spawn of Satan IMHO; always flooding the motor on cold mornings.
In Colorado, where I grew up, it would be -14F, and it was a PITA when, after it flooded and failed to start, to disconnect the AFM, crank with the pedal floored until it pops, then re-connect the AFM, and finally drive to work.
Before being taught this trick, cold starts were either swear or pray.
Never has the bus failed to start, even far below zero, with the CSV disconnected.
Maybe just proves I've had it too rich all along, I dunno.
Cheaper than dropping a valve seat...
The plugs have about 10K on them, they just look like that because my start-up environment (and idle/low speed, maybe?) has been so rich.
Honestly, I have been so obsessed with this startup issue, that I totally forget to even think of the plugs! 
Air leaks have been chased down obsessively for years, otherwise my problems would be of the opposite nature; lean at idle, not rich.
I was even contemplating boring out the AFM bypass screw and hole bigger, or drilling a hole in the AFM flap like they do in throttle butterflies sometimes...
Too bad Jake took his forums down, I spent SO much time documenting the process of (trying) to get this thing past a smog test.
My friend even bought a 'smoke machine' - Ever try one of those?
A real eye opener for sure..
In conclusion - A big tanks to asiab3 and WhirldTraveller for the tip with the wideband. 
Makes sense that they would be wonky when cold.
The numbers when warm are so perfect by comparison!
Maybe the cold start stumble/fail isn't the over-rich condition the wideband says it is! 
Maybe it's just plain old 'not enough air'.
Thanks for all of the help, guys.
When I spend the whole day working on the same problem, can tend to start getting tunnel vision...
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Alan Brase
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Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Clatter
No disrespect taken, and a good way to look at it, thanks.
I'm a bit confused..
The CSV has been disconnected for years.
It was tested a couple of years ago to check that it doesn't drip.
Maybe it has started dripping.
it's unlikely to drip because it's never open..
I'll check it again, or, better yet, bypass it entirely.
The CSV is the spawn of Satan IMHO; always flooding the motor on cold mornings.
In Colorado, where I grew up, it would be -14F, and it was a PITA when, after it flooded and failed to start, to disconnect the AFM, crank with the pedal floored until it pops, then re-connect the AFM, and finally drive to work.
Before being taught this trick, cold starts were either swear or pray.
Never has the bus failed to start, even far below zero, with the CSV disconnected.
Maybe just proves I've had it too rich all along, I dunno.
Cheaper than dropping a valve seat...
Thanks for all of the help, guys.
When I spend the whole day working on the same problem, can tend to start getting tunnel vision...[/quote]
HUH? The cold start valve has NOTHINGTO DO WITH THE AFM. The thermo time switch is all that controls it.
If taking your AFM loose to get it started in extreme cold you have a bad TS1. Which might explain a few other things. It might be too lean at high ambients also.
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:55 am Post subject: |
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If this system were mine, I think I would come up with a spare AFM and a spare ECU, making sure that the part numbers for both were correct for your application. I am thinking you present ones either are defective or that they are the wrong part numbers that got switched off of some other model vehicle years ago.
I know that these things can be a bitch to start in cold weather at higher elevations as I have seen this many times when I worked in ski areas. Excepting the diesel Scout no other vehicle gave more starting problems than fuel injected air cooled VW's by far. Many owners ended up rewiring their CSV's to make them manually operated from the dash and some like myself effectively changed the output of the TSII sensor. |
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Clatter
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Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| 69doublecab wrote: |
HUH? The cold start valve has NOTHINGTO DO WITH THE AFM. The thermo time switch is all that controls it.
If taking your AFM loose to get it started in extreme cold you have a bad TS1. Which might explain a few other things. It might be too lean at high ambients also.
Al |
Sorry to confuse.
Un-plugging the AFM, Flooring the pedal, and cranking until it pops is how you un-flood the thing..
Like Wildthings has confirmed with his actual experience - cold ambient temps and high altitudes conspire to make cold starts very difficult.
My experience is the same.
Next week we will (hopefully) be camping at 11,500ft. elevation.
This after traversing the entire state of Nevada and half of Utah in one day (in July).
Some of us ask a lot of this ancient junk!
Cool running loaded across the desert,
Then a graceful cold-start clear up near where trees won't even grow...
9600ft. ain't a lot,
But Sonora pass is 24% in some places...
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Last edited by Clatter on Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:46 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Clatter
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Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
If this system were mine, I think I would come up with a spare AFM and a spare ECU, making sure that the part numbers for both were correct for your application. I am thinking you present ones either are defective or that they are the wrong part numbers that got switched off of some other model vehicle years ago.
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This is really good advice.
I have tracked down spares for years.
There are three AFMs here in my box, all of them have been run on this motor and dialed in (fairly close) with the wideband on the highway.
Anyhow,
Yesterday was another afternoon of fine tuning.
Colin 'Amskeptic' had suggested that the AFM spring might be tightened up a bit, and the wiper moved over to compensate.
This was a bit counter-intuitive to me, as I (previously) thought that the wiper didn't have a large effect on high-speed running.
However, the tweaks were made, maybe a bit too much now, as I have the around-town running pretty lean, but the highway running about right.
The cold-start test was just finished this morning, and it went off fairly gracefully - it did idle down to like 650 for a while, but got warmed up and ran without my foot being needed.
Oddly enough, the wideband had it at like 14.5 - 15:1 or so later during this start, after the cold part, but, before it warmed.
Not that I watch the cold-start ratio anymore...
I can post some of my numbers and notes from yesterday's run if anybody is interested.
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Alan Brase
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Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Clatter wrote: |
| 69doublecab wrote: |
HUH? The cold start valve has NOTHINGTO DO WITH THE AFM. The thermo time switch is all that controls it.
If taking your AFM loose to get it started in extreme cold you have a bad TS1. Which might explain a few other things. It might be too lean at high ambients also.
Al |
Sorry to confuse.
Un-plugging the AFM, Flooring the pedal, and cranking until it pops is how you un-flood the thing..
Some of us ask a lot of this ancient junk!
Cool running loaded across the desert,
Then a graceful cold-start clear up near where trees won't even grow...
9600ft. ain't a lot,
But Sonora pass is 24% in some places...
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It seems a few L-Jets had a high altitude switch.
BUT please re-read what I said. I propose that the cold start injector opening for 4 seconds is not enough to flood it badly. And furthermore, unhooking the AFM would not stop the cold start injector coming on, because it is ONLY controlled by the thermo time switch.
What I suggest is happening is that the Temp Sensor 1, in the AFM is defective and making it too rich at low temps. The exact thing happened to mine. It was also too lean at high ambients. Lean enough to melt my pistons twice.
Changing to a different AFM might make it closer to correct. Measuring the resistance of the TS1 would be good, but I'm not sure where the values should be.
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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Clatter
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Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:52 am Post subject: |
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From Bentley 10:4:15..
"So shall terminals 6 and 27 give 2500 Ohms or less,
or there will be great smoke, frapping and wrath..."
All three of mine gave under 2500; some were closer than others.
Because this is really the only test you can do with basic tools, they would get kept or binned accordingly..
Would there be any benefit to using one further away from 2500, if possible?
Was taught long ago that an AFM was either a six-pin or seven-pin (TS1 or not),
And that if you were going to monkey with the spring, (or a PO has), that it didn't really matter which specific part number the AFM was.
Contrary to the scriptures..
Anybody out there know of a specific reason why exactly one part number seven-pin AFM would be different than another, aside from spring tension and wiper setting?
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Alan Brase
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Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Well, if that is the TS1, it varies according to the temperature of the air going past it. (Kind of a lame, primitive way to measure MASS, which is what really need to measure. They measure volume and temperature and interpolate. Or would it be extrapolate. Yes, I think. Hot wire systems or any true MAF measure mass directly. )
Too bad one cannot buy canned spray freon. Just give it a shot with that, then measure the resistance. Should go up.
Al
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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Wildthings
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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The Vanagon Bentley which really gives much better info than the Bay Window Bentley shows that the TSI sensor should be in the range of 2100-3100 ohms, so I don't see a problem with the readings your are seeing.
I think the differences between one seven pin AFM and another are minor, maybe just tuning differences. |
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WhirledTraveller
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Location: Cambridge, MA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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An update for myself... I did end up ordering the aircooled.net aluminum pushrods. Got them installed last week, adjusted to 0.006, and adjusted the hot idle and hot idle mixture (using the "push the wiper" technique). My cold start and cold idle is much, much improved (cold being of course relative... it's in the mid 80's). I no longer require any throttle pressure to get a good start and good idle.
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