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dhaavers
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Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 7756
Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
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 Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:27 am Post subject: |
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PLEASE let us know how silently your new system runs with the rubber mounts.
I'm still happy with the performance of my budget install, but I'd seriously consider
a batch of these on the hoses to lose some of the compressor noise...
Cheers! 
- Dave
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86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
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Paulbeard
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Joined: July 10, 2015
Posts: 2604
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:48 pm Post subject: Ballpark costs for a full restore of the A/C? |
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Frida, my '87, has factory A/C but I doubt it has worked in this century. PO who had her for 12 years didn't mention it.
Given how unlikely it is I would use it (if there were any vents within 8 feet of the steering wheel, I'd consider it), is it worth carting it around? I don't gain anything by removing it, I guess, but I have an aversion to redundant junk. I could leave it in place for whoever is the next steward, so they have one less thing to curse my name for.
So I'm wondering what the range of costs would be to restore it, assuming most of the hoses and seals have to go, the system flushed and refilled. It looks like a spreadsheet was being put together higher in the thread but I haven't found if it was kept up.
My gut says it's not worth doing. Anyone have a sense of the full bill?
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Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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JudoJeff
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Joined: May 24, 2013
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Location: Near Springfield, MA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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$600 to $1,000 DIY
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________________________________________
1989 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Burned up on 7/31/16.
1987 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Bostig & Rebuilt, sold
1986 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Bostig Sold May 10, 2021
1999 Ford GTRV Westfalia camper (30% bigger Westy layout)
Last edited by JudoJeff on Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Paulbeard
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Joined: July 10, 2015
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Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| djkeev wrote: |
DIY about $1000 with all new parts except the Evaporator.
Many want AC, to remove it limits your possible resale market.
Dave |
Those were my guesses as well…I need a lot of other stuff before I drop that on comfort. Not that $1000 will be any real fraction of a decent respray…
_________________
Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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dhaavers
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Joined: March 19, 2010
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Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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My job just this spring came to almost exactly $750 for parts & refrigerant. ALL new,
with the exception of the original evaporator which I flushed clean & reinstalled.
Figure another $250 for essential tools: vac pump plus manifold & hoses...
Wifey can't live without it...
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86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
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Terry Kay
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Joined: June 22, 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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<<Figure another $250 for essential tools: vac pump plus manifold & hoses...>>
I thought Goldfines was closed up.
I sure don't know where you're buying your AC tools but good tools with accurate and precise operation sure cost a bunch more than that.
Good Barrier hoses ain't cheap.
The $1000.00 posted figure to resurrect a dead AC system would be, for sure, much more than a $1000.00 bill.
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dhaavers
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Posts: 7756
Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:24 am Post subject: |
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^^^ Granted, GOOD tools can run you more than $250, but that's what I spent
for DIY "good enough" tools. That, a lot of reading, study and careful work got me
a fully-functional, righteously-resurrected AC system.
That's my story...YMMV...
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86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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greebly
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| How much oil did you use Dave? What were the system pressures? Are you running a box fan over the condenser? Is 60° at idle / stationary? Is your compressor cycling off? |
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Terry Kay
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Joined: June 22, 2003
Posts: 13331
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:09 am Post subject: |
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David,
The possible problems here are infinite.
You cannot see, touch, or crawl into that system to put your finger on exactly what's wrong.
But, I'm going to say that from what you've done, and what your seeing in vent temps is a possible air or moisture left within the system situation.
You seem to have done it all right--there has to be an ooops here somewhere.
That thing should be cranking out 38 degrees with no issues.
You have a glitch here, and your going to have to find out what / where that glitch is.
Get into your Pink Panther outfit and find that--- 
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dhaavers
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Dave - I thought I read that you swapped in your old TXV with better results...???
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:36 am Post subject: |
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I should finish my post, got distracted! 
Anyway...... Very little real cold air, cool enough to simply make it stuffy inside, not worth turning it on.
I know Terry knows these old systems quite well so I contacted him for help.
We emailed back and forth and I ended up calling him..
He and I went over what I did, BTW.... he's not a fan of the cross flow condenser (but other's have had good success with it) but he asked a very pointed question....
"You installed a cheapie after market expansion valve didn't you?"
I replied that Yes I did .... ( Thinking that it wasn't cheap) ...he said....
"I don't know why but in many cases the new expansion valves simply do not work on these systems, do you have the old one? .... Put it back in."
So to the used parts pile I went ....... Drained the system and installed the old valve.
Pulled a vacuum (after some stupid mistakes it worked, the pumps R12 port cap came loose on the pump, found that AFTER pulling the valve again, putting in new seals..... Yada yada yada. )
Charged it up, just shy of 3 cans of RedTek and it now blows 42* at highway speeds.
I will play with it adding a little bit while watching the Evaporator temps and try to get the vent temp in the. Mid 30's.
Bottom line..... Listen to TK folks.... He knows these systems!
THANK YOU TERRY!!!!
It begs to be asked.... WHY don't new valves always work?
I've been reading and Googling trying to find the answer.
Best I've come up with is these valves are preset for a "normal" short hose run system.
Our systems are HUGE running almost 40' of hose. Something affects the valve with all of the traveling of the refrigerant?
Dave
(Now to solve my auto trans/differential oil issues........  )
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Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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insyncro
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:46 am Post subject: |
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When I am asked for a price to bring back a stock AC in a Vanagon, equipped with stock parts...$2500 time + materials is my answer.
$4500 time and materials to add front AC.
The AC service machine I have my eye on is roughly $8000 
Snap on, FJC and MasterCool all make decent quality tools, with prices in the hundreds for each tool or kit. |
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Terry Kay
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:15 am Post subject: |
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The best tools you can get ahold of is key to AC system success stories.
There just isn't any way around it.
Harbor Freight Or Northern Tool isn't part of this equation.
Anyway--back to the expansion valve issue.
I've had a lot of folks P-Mail me on on this, and I have run into the same problem with customer supplied parts.
They drop in my lap a new evaporator of unknown origin, it gets installed, and I have a hell of a time getting the system to evac. properly --down to acceptable vacuum pressures.
Then when it's loaded up with Freon, the vent temps aren't even close to acceptable, as Dave was finding in his Van.
So, in a couple of Vans I had done and not been happy with, I slid over to VW and picked up a bunch of OE expansion valves--horribly expensive for the faint of heart.
Guess what?
Every time I did the swap to the right part I always could get the to proper vacuum readings, and to acceptable operating pressures.
So, with all of this in mind--please believe me--all things are not created equal in expansion valves & how they operate.
The XYZ , low ball valve you have just installed more than likely is the issue your having with no cold air coming out of the vents.
Don't ask me why--the reasoning behind this eludes my grey matter too.
But it has been the best path I've taken to get to where the AC system should be.
Buy the Big Dollar genuine VW valve & be done with it--it works.
Oh--and by the way;
They are NLA -so now I don't know what your going to do to get the AC set up right.
I have 2 of them remaining only---I had 15.
A guy just might try and clean his out--the only problem is if any junk has floated into the capillary tube--it's a dead end, the garbage will never come out--it'll never work right again.
That expansion valve is now junk--replace it with the correct valve.
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Howesight
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Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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On some vehicles, the TSV location is so hard to get to, the whole dash needs to be removed to change it. On the Vanagon, things are not that bad, but the current spate of crappy TXV's from the less careful manufacturers might suggest going old school and using an orifice tube set up if you are renewing your Vanagon AC system.
Here's a pic showing someone who retrofitted an orifice tube on an older Mercedes:
Here's a pic showing (at the yellow arrow) where this item could be installed on the liquid line of the Vanagon in the D-pillar area:
I know that the orifice tube approach is not very sophisticated, but Audi used them in almost all their AC systems for years, mainly, I think, because of the ease of repair (no dash removal!) and also because their first systems were license-built carbon-copies of the Harrison CCOT system from the 1970's Cadillacs (!!).
The beauty of the orifice tube approach is that the orifice tube does not have to be installed right at the evaporator itself, as is required with a TXV. This means it can be installed in an easily-accessible location. So, on my home-brew in-dash front AC, for example, I only need to remove my grill to access the orifice tube (at the yellow arrow):
There are even new variants on the orifice tube (the "Variable Orifice Valve")designed to make them more efficient:
http://www.acsource.com/smartvov-highperformanceorificetubes.aspx
The only additional step is to install an accumulator in the low-pressure suction line. The receiver-drier from the TXV system can still be used, or it can be by-passed.
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Terry Kay
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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On any GM ( Harrison ) orifice tube arrangement, it was mounted right at the dryer in the low side--close to, just on the opposite side of the firewall & evaporator.
I have no clue how it would act / operate mid line somewhere that far away from the evaporator--if it does at all--
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Howesight
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, Terry, I hear you. My accumulator is located right in front of where the passenger's feet would be, under the sloped part of the floor boards. It gets hot radiator air blowing near it. The old Audi 5000 used the location right beside the evaporator housing (bolted to it, in fact). The Audi 200, A4, A6 and A8 cars put the accumulator much further away, near the fender well on the driver's side, right in front of the front wheel. So, in those installations, the accumulator is closer to the compressor than in the old Cadillacs and other GM products. My thought was that it was best to have the accumulator located in a location that is hot or at least warm, since its purpose is to allow any liquid refrigerant that emerges from the evaporator to evaporate into vapour, so that it can't slug the compressor.
I accept that the CCOT (cycling clutch orifice tube) system cannot extract superheat like the TXV approach can, but the reliability of CCOT is hard to beat. All those Audi and Ford and GM engineers must have had some reason for going CCOT - - perhaps reliability and perhaps cost savings.
For my dollar, going to a CCOT approach does not make sense in and of itself. It only makes sense if you are already making new hoses and completely renewing your AC system, at which point, the cost of going either way, staying stock, with a new TXV and receiver-drier, or getting a CCOT tube and accumulator, is identical. Just another option which, in my case, has proven reliable so far (three years later).
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Terry Kay
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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The old Harris style orifice tube set ups were simple, and worked well.
One benifit of them is the screen that is built into them.
The screen trapped all ( ok most all) of the garbage that floated around in the system.
9 times outa 10 if a system wasn't blowing real cold, change the orfice tube up front of the dryer, right on the firewall, and you were back in business.
Simple.
Couldn't be any easier.
Adapting this set up out & away from the evap cabinet would make the Vanagon AC that much easier to work on.
I just didn't know if it would function remotely away from the dryer as you pictured it.
The dryer up where it's warmer might just cause the dryer to work better.
I think that where VW mounted it open in the wheel well was not a real good idea from the get go.
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djkeev
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