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Northof49
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2013
Posts: 1759
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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 Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:30 am Post subject: |
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Whether it's supercharged by an exhaust driven supercharger (turbocharger) or driven off the crank, it still results in much higher exhaust gas pressures than a non supercharged engine. At least a turbocharger utilizes some of that otherwise wasted energy.
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FRNKNSTNGHIA
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2010
Posts: 411
Location: Kissimmee, FL
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:01 am Post subject: |
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So I was looking at the Joe Blow site last night. Fabrication and welds look to be a great quality. He showed a before and after dyno. Before 39whp and After 66whp. So he generated 67% more power at 6/7psi. Seems like a successful setup.
I know some had stated how can the basic kit without supercharger be $1300AUD (~900US) and then with the supercharger goes for additional $600AUD (~440US). YOu have to realize hes providing a rebuilt AMR500 which can be sourced for roughly $250-300US. So he may get them cheaper being in Australia and just inspect them and replace parts if needed.
My question is I am building a 1955cc engine with SP heads so it won't see past 6K RPMs ever. I'm not fully versed on superchargers, so would the AMR500 be too small for that size engine?
If it would work I could see buying the DIY kit for 900+shipping, supercharger off ebay for 300 shipped, buy carb and rebuild kit for 400, and have everything for under 2000. As oppose to his full kit which is like $2600.
Any thoughts? |
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j.donnel
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Joined: April 20, 2011
Posts: 52
Location: Sacramento,CA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:10 am Post subject: |
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According to the internet on a 1600cc VW motor it produces 5 PSI using a 2.1:1 and is limited to 8000 rpms. So it looks as though the AMR500 is too small for your 1955cc it's going to suck more air than the super charger can move.
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1958 Euro Ragtop Bug
2010 Toyota Corolla
"Hey we should turbo that..." |
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Stripped66
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Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3470
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| FRNKNSTNGHIA wrote: |
Any thoughts? |
IMO, grossly overpriced. Unless you've got money on fire and just have to get rid of it, or you have absolutely no mechanical skills whatsoever, you can fabricate a set-up for 1/3 the cost yourself, and probably 1/2 the cost if you need to pay somebody else for machine work/welding.
Just look at the $900 ($650 USD) upgrade to the full kit...there's maybe $200 in parts (generously valuing the oil seperator at $100...) in that upgrade...$450 for putting it into a box?
$2500+ is a lot of money to upgrade a single-port 1955; you'll make more power for less money just by buying better cylinder heads.
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| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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arizonabuckeye
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Joined: November 10, 2013
Posts: 544
Location: SLC
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| For the money you can get a more well known turbo kit that would give better results and would have the added benefit of tons and tons of people on here that have done it already. |
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mcmscott
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Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4858
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Howard 111 wrote: |
| When you talk Top Fuel, and Funny Cars, it's another world, FAR from VW's. They run tremendous boost on top of a tremendous CR, and the fuel is not like anything a street car burns. I was talking about making HP with a street VW. |
You know a fuel car is typically 6:1 CR, not exactly "tremendous". Sorry for the distraction
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arizonabuckeye
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Joined: November 10, 2013
Posts: 544
Location: SLC
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| SoCalJes wrote: |
| Howard 111 wrote: |
| Turbo is the way to go. Superchargers eat up a large portion of the HP they make. A turbo makes free HP. It works off the exhaust. |
Really so all the folks running 14-71 super chargers on top fuel would stand to learn something by running turbos??? I think not! |
Actually the reason they run open headers (and hence no turbo) is because of the downforce and as a result better traction they produce. Also a super charger is rules mandated.
| mcmscott wrote: |
| Howard 111 wrote: |
| When you talk Top Fuel, and Funny Cars, it's another world, FAR from VW's. They run tremendous boost on top of a tremendous CR, and the fuel is not like anything a street car burns. I was talking about making HP with a street VW. |
You know a fuel car is typically 6:1 CR, not exactly "tremendous". Sorry for the distraction |
Considering the super chargers are over-driven and that they run up to like 75 lbs of boost maybe something like "effective compression ratio" would be a better comparison. No idea what that would be or how it could be calculated. Really the point is that comparing a Top Fuel dragster to a VW Beetle is dumb for so many reasons. |
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I Ride Sand
Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2012
Posts: 567
Location: utah
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| arizonabuckeye wrote: |
| SoCalJes wrote: |
| Howard 111 wrote: |
| Turbo is the way to go. Superchargers eat up a large portion of the HP they make. A turbo makes free HP. It works off the exhaust. |
Really so all the folks running 14-71 super chargers on top fuel would stand to learn something by running turbos??? I think not! |
Actually the reason they run open headers (and hence no turbo) is because of the downforce and as a result better traction they produce. Also a super charger is rules mandated.
| mcmscott wrote: |
You know a fuel car is typically 6:1 CR, not exactly "tremendous". Sorry for the distraction |
Considering the super chargers are over-driven and that they run up to like 75 lbs of boost maybe something like "effective compression ratio" would be a better comparison. No idea what that would be or how it could be calculated. Really the point is that comparing a Top Fuel dragster to a VW Beetle is dumb for so many reasons. |
dont forget the 4:1 stoichiometric ratio! They burn a few gallons of nitro in that 4 second run. |
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| Eaallred wrote: |
| SoCalJes wrote: |
| Howard 111 wrote: |
| Turbo is the way to go. Superchargers eat up a large portion of the HP they make. A turbo makes free HP. It works off the exhaust. |
Really so all the folks running 14-71 super chargers on top fuel would stand to learn something by running turbos??? I think not! |
Well, they do say it takes about 600hp to to turn the supercharger on a top fuel car.....
But that's not to say a turbo is 'free' power. Not at all. A turbo is a HUGE exhaust restriction. I ran my car with the intake off (EFI car) and tried to drive it, it labored the whole time and wouldn't pull over 5500rpm.
Turbo's are NOT free HP. They take power to spin too. |
A turbo does take power from the engine to turn. But they also get some "free"power to drive. In an Otto cycle part of the inefficiency is that when the exhaust valve begins to open there still is pressure in the cylinder. This pressure is energy that is normally lost in a loud "POP!" But if there's a turbine afterwards it gets part of its power from these "pops" that normally would be wasted. It gets the rest of its power from the piston pushing the exhaust out.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Howard 111
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Joined: July 09, 2005
Posts: 1827
Location: Virginia
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Boolean
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2012
Posts: 1712
Location: Stockholm
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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When someone began using turbos in top fuel, they quickly banned them. This may have been already in the seventies IIRC.
They did it again with Lysholm chargers more recently.
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Build thread here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=529379 |
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Dr OnHolliday
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2012
Posts: 1215
Location: was Escondido now San Berdoo
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Turbos get power from the exhaust heat, not just from exhaust pressure.
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1965 Type 1 sunroof Baja / about 70k miles on self-rebuilt '74 1600 and counting / SP heads and aftermarket valve keepers / non-doghouse shroud with external cooler and filter / 1.5 qt extended sump / Weber 32/36 DFAV progressive carb / 009 dist with Pertronix / 1.25 ratio rockers and ball adjusters / 1.5" stainless steel J-pipes and carbon steel baja exhaust |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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free power!!!!!! thats a good one. and yes you can use the exhaust from a supercharged car. just look at that top fuel car it uses the exhaust for down force and traction. Ive built many supercharged engines and done machine work on turbo engines. untill all the turbo controls were available it was hard to realy make good fast&quick cars.b jt thats all taken care of nowdays. back in 03 I think it was a did a lot of machine work on a bigblock for a a long time friend a chassie builder (also driver) he had always run superchargers. he decided to give a turbo a try. he set a national record. the engine was realy nothing special. but the tuning and chassie was, as was the driver. he now builds promods mostly and still races them too. look up joey martin racecars. he has some wicked cars come out of his shop.even sends them to Australia
the important part of forced induction is. dont half ass it.or it will half ass your wallet quickley.. |
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bluedot
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2013
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 12:52 am Post subject: Re: Superchargers |
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| wheres the dynos? talk is cheap. |
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:20 am Post subject: Re: Superchargers |
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You know this post was 2 years ago  
Wish I had a Dyno ,If just to check if my 4 Barrel secondary is opening all the way,
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'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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bluedot
Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2013
Posts: 439
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Superchargers |
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Time on forums is irrelevant, right?
Seriously... is there any dyno info on superchargers, anywhere? |
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:25 am Post subject: Re: Superchargers |
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Ohio Tom Tried a Supercharger here in the midwest,, he gave up finally
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'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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buguy
Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 4915
Location: Port Orange, FL
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Superchargers |
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| Hey Mike maybe with the popularity of gopro you could find someone you know with one you could rig up to record a couple runs right over the carb? When I first built mine I wondered the same thing so I zip tied it so it was forced to open. I didn't feel any difference so I figured she was opening. |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Superchargers |
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super works on what ever you put it on, the out come is usualy dependent on the installer/installation/items used. as for the guy that wanted low rpm usage thats where the super shines it's pertty much a no lag situation,but no it's not allways on boost. usualy just when the motor has a load.... turbos shine with thier tunability and tracksion adjustabilitry.although there is some people now using controalable blowoff valves for superchargers. small supercharger probably ok but thats a lot to releave on a big one that fast and not steal from 1 or 2 cylinders causing catastrophic failure. wastegates&the other stuff on turbos are sweet for tuning to track conditions.
as for the small supercharger on the 1955 motor, probably ok just over drive it.8000 on a 1600, over drive it so you get what you want at the 5000rpm you want. you could also still pipe it through a inter cooler on a vw. |
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5292
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:04 am Post subject: Re: Superchargers |
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Buguy, I thought of that too, paper clip trick worked somewhat but I keep loosing them
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'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
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