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twistedbug
Samba Member
Joined: January 15, 2006
Posts: 675
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 Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| My flipseat westy is a heavy bus, I have a dual carbed motor, I was worried it could run hot, as in Nor Cal it gets hot up here, I installed the motor without the rear engine tin to allow more air flow into the engine compartment, the motor does get dusty thou. I know the vw engineers spent countless hours and tons of money to figure all this out, but this works for my bus, I wasn't worried about the air flowing over the trans and getting heated, I don't believe that happens, give it a try. |
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JohnnyRingo
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Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| twistedbug wrote: |
| My flipseat westy is a heavy bus, I have a dual carbed motor, I was worried it could run hot, as in Nor Cal it gets hot up here, I installed the motor without the rear engine tin to allow more air flow into the engine compartment, the motor does get dusty thou. I know the vw engineers spent countless hours and tons of money to figure all this out, but this works for my bus, I wasn't worried about the air flowing over the trans and getting heated, I don't believe that happens, give it a try. |
Yea.....I have been reading alot of post about the subject.....Eric A. was very informative, going to give it a try. But I may just cut out the passenger front tin and frame out with a coarse screen, to keep trash from coming up from underneath, if I get good results...,...Next I would make the 90 degree tube and route the air from cooler through sled tin.
Last edited by JohnnyRingo on Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:44 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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j.pickens
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Joined: December 03, 2002
Posts: 9789
Location: Exit 7, New Jersey
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| JohnnyRingo wrote: |
| twistedbug wrote: |
| My flipseat westy is a heavy bus, I have a dual carbed motor, I was worried it could run hot, as in Nor Cal it gets hot up here, I installed the motor without the rear engine tin to allow more air flow into the engine compartment, the motor does get dusty thou. I know the vw engineers spent countless hours and tons of money to figure all this out, but this works for my bus, I wasn't worried about the air flowing over the trans and getting heated, I don't believe that happens, give it a try. |
Yea.....I have been reading alot of post about the subject.....Eric A. was very informative, going to give it a try. But I may just cut out the passenger front tin and frame out with a coarse screen, to keep trash from coming up from underneath, if I get good results...,...Next I would make the 90 degree tube and route the air from cooler through sled tin. |
Yeah, take a sawzall to one of the most rustfree buses in existence. That's a great idea.
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Founder and Chairman Emeritus, ECMSAS
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| BeaterBarndoor wrote: |
i wish more people would actually drive their vws rather than just talking about what they have in the garage. |
| Red Fau Veh wrote: |
If you've seen one sunroof swivel seat kombi, you've seen them all!  |
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JohnnyRingo
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| j.pickens wrote: |
| JohnnyRingo wrote: |
| twistedbug wrote: |
| My flipseat westy is a heavy bus, I have a dual carbed motor, I was worried it could run hot, as in Nor Cal it gets hot up here, I installed the motor without the rear engine tin to allow more air flow into the engine compartment, the motor does get dusty thou. I know the vw engineers spent countless hours and tons of money to figure all this out, but this works for my bus, I wasn't worried about the air flowing over the trans and getting heated, I don't believe that happens, give it a try. |
Yea.....I have been reading alot of post about the subject.....Eric A. was very informative, going to give it a try. But I may just cut out the passenger front tin and frame out with a coarse screen, to keep trash from coming up from underneath, if I get good results...,...Next I would make the 90 degree tube and route the air from cooler through sled tin. |
Yeah, take a sawzall to one of the most rustfree buses in existence. That's a great idea. |
FIREWALL ENGINE TIN............has nothing to do with the bus. |
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iamdonquixote
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Joined: January 28, 2003
Posts: 2041
Location: M*ssholia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| cru62 wrote: |
| Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the bypass triggered by low pressure as the oil heats up and thins? I thought that the high pressure of cold, thick oil bypasses the cooler since it is not needed and will blow up the cooler. |
The bypass is triggered by higher oil pressure. It pushes down on the spring which diverts oil and bypasses oil cooler. VW engineers made the assumption that higher oil pressure meant cooler oil (especially with single weight oil ). As the oil thins and the pressure reduces , the spring pushes up and sends oil to the cooler. I guess I'm agreeing with you but changing the description.
The reason this was brought up is not to suggest the setup he has is necessarily wrong, just to raise the question if the larger oil pump ( 30mm vs standard 21 or 26mm ) could be producing too much pressure and overwhelming the bypass spring. Since pretty much every built up engine is kind of a custom setup these days its worth investigating everything. Which is why people ask : which carbs?. which exhaust? which heads? what compression? which oil? etc.
It may be that the engine compartment is 'starved' for air due to larger engine etc etc. I think the link thread that everett posted has some evidence of a greater vacuum with a larger engine. |
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eric m
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Joined: January 14, 2004
Posts: 125
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j.pickens
Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2002
Posts: 9789
Location: Exit 7, New Jersey
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| JohnnyRingo wrote: |
| j.pickens wrote: |
| JohnnyRingo wrote: |
| twistedbug wrote: |
| My flipseat westy is a heavy bus, I have a dual carbed motor, I was worried it could run hot, as in Nor Cal it gets hot up here, I installed the motor without the rear engine tin to allow more air flow into the engine compartment, the motor does get dusty thou. I know the vw engineers spent countless hours and tons of money to figure all this out, but this works for my bus, I wasn't worried about the air flowing over the trans and getting heated, I don't believe that happens, give it a try. |
Yea.....I have been reading alot of post about the subject.....Eric A. was very informative, going to give it a try. But I may just cut out the passenger front tin and frame out with a coarse screen, to keep trash from coming up from underneath, if I get good results...,...Next I would make the 90 degree tube and route the air from cooler through sled tin. |
Yeah, take a sawzall to one of the most rustfree buses in existence. That's a great idea. |
FIREWALL ENGINE TIN............has nothing to do with the bus. |
Misread your posting. Sorry.
I very much doubt the extra air opening will help much. I'd follow iamdonquixote's advice and keep working on the engine.
_________________
Founder and Chairman Emeritus, ECMSAS
BBX BBXII and BBXXI Long Distance Award Winner
| BeaterBarndoor wrote: |
i wish more people would actually drive their vws rather than just talking about what they have in the garage. |
| Red Fau Veh wrote: |
| If you've seen one sunroof swivel seat kombi, you've seen them all! |
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JohnnyRingo
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| I would think that with all the engines (1000's) Pat has built someone would have come forward now with the same problems running the 30 mm pumps that he installs. His dyno proved to be 40 psi at 3200 rpms. I will be installing a oil pressure gauge this week to confirm. Also want to measure actual oil cooler temps from exhaust duct. Still running 12 degrees cooler with 356 pulley over the weekend. |
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Pat D
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Joined: March 10, 2004
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 8:15 am Post subject: |
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How does the 30mm pump and hot oil temp theory hold out when all of the late model VW's in Mexico were produced with 30mm filter style oil pumps?
Again, with the oil pressure bypass opening up at 40-45 psi, I can't believe the oil cooler bypass is open when it is set at 75+lbs.
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Pat, Im too fast slow me downs! |
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24738
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| twistedbug wrote: |
| I installed the motor without the rear engine tin to allow more air flow into the engine compartment, the motor does get dusty thou. |
Think you mean the front engine tin. Rear tin is closer to the rear bumper, right over the muffler, and all the hot air being pumped out of the engine.
Other than more dirt/dust getting into the engine compartment, the big problem would be getting the DH exhaust going back into the engine compartment. Probably solvable by extending the exhaust tube down and to the left more so that heat is moved away.
Found a while ago a front tin with a DH exhaust pipe welded into the tin piece that looks very factory, guessing maybe Brazilian. Pipe was round and would be so easy to attach some flexible tubing to.
Someone could really get fancy and rig up a door in the front tin to open/close as needed from inside the engine compartment. That way one can reduce amount of dirt/dust into the compartment.
Definitely know how between Sacramento and Redding on I-5 one can run into strong winds both directions, and going North bound you are pushing up a long uphill. Used to be a huge problem for us loaded up with cargo inside and on roof racks, and require slowing down to 2,500 to 2,800 RPMs to get the oil to stay below 220 F. After all the modifications and 3.875 R&P FF transaxle can cruise along at 3,000 RPM @ 60 MPH thru there and only have it spike up for a minute or two to 220 F on two of the steeper over passes going North bound into a strong head wind in weather about 95 F. The 1641 thin walled cylinders SP CW crank engine is still running like new over 140,000 miles later and getting around 23 MPG. Thinking of taking the engine down to long block this Winter to reseal it, to stop oil seepage and driving it for another 100,000 or 150,000 miles....
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twistedbug
Samba Member
Joined: January 15, 2006
Posts: 675
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| The rear or back of a engine for me is where the flywheel flex plate or clutch assembly is. what about transvert mounted engines, the rear of a motor will always be the rear of the motor no matter how mounted. just saying |
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24738
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| twistedbug wrote: |
| The rear or back of a engine for me is where the flywheel flex plate or clutch assembly is. what about transvert mounted engines, the rear of a motor will always be the rear of the motor no matter how mounted. just saying |
Just going by the VW parts and repair manuals. Front is front. Lots less confusion then.
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iamdonquixote
Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2003
Posts: 2041
Location: M*ssholia
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| Pat D wrote: |
| How does the 30mm pump and hot oil temp theory hold out when all of the late model VW's in Mexico were produced with 30mm filter style oil pumps? |
Did they use a different relief spring to accompany the 30mm pumps? What is the benefit of a larger pump?
I'm still a learner here, and not suggesting that I have answers, just raising questions. I have pretty much zero experience as an engine builder, and still trying to understand why people use different setups ( ie, pumps, cams, heads )
| Pat D wrote: |
Again, with the oil pressure bypass opening up at 40-45 psi, I can't believe the oil cooler bypass is open when it is set at 75+lbs. |
Can you explain this a bit more? You say 'it' is set at 75+ lbs, what is "it"? |
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Pat D
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Joined: March 10, 2004
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| iamdonquixote wrote: |
| Pat D wrote: |
| How does the 30mm pump and hot oil temp theory hold out when all of the late model VW's in Mexico were produced with 30mm filter style oil pumps? |
Did they use a different relief spring to accompany the 30mm pumps? What is the benefit of a larger pump?
I'm still a learner here, and not suggesting that I have answers, just raising questions. I have pretty much zero experience as an engine builder, and still trying to understand why people use different setups ( ie, pumps, cams, heads )
| Pat D wrote: |
Again, with the oil pressure bypass opening up at 40-45 psi, I can't believe the oil cooler bypass is open when it is set at 75+lbs. |
Can you explain this a bit more? You say 'it' is set at 75+ lbs, what is "it"? |
I use 30mm pumps on most of my engines because I want the additional pressure at idle. "It" is referred to the oil cooler bypass. VW uses stock springs, in fact, I use stock OEM bypass springs straight from VW, the same ones they use in all of their engines. "they" is referred to VW of Mexico.
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JohnnyRingo
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| twistedbug wrote: |
| I installed the motor without the rear engine tin to allow more air flow into the engine compartment, the motor does get dusty thou. |
Think you mean the front engine tin. Rear tin is closer to the rear bumper, right over the muffler, and all the hot air being pumped out of the engine.
Other than more dirt/dust getting into the engine compartment, the big problem would be getting the DH exhaust going back into the engine compartment. Probably solvable by extending the exhaust tube down and to the left more so that heat is moved away.
Found a while ago a front tin with a DH exhaust pipe welded into the tin piece that looks very factory, guessing maybe Brazilian. Pipe was round and would be so easy to attach some flexible tubing to.
Someone could really get fancy and rig up a door in the front tin to open/close as needed from inside the engine compartment. That way one can reduce amount of dirt/dust into the compartment.
Definitely know how between Sacramento and Redding on I-5 one can run into strong winds both directions, and going North bound you are pushing up a long uphill. Used to be a huge problem for us loaded up with cargo inside and on roof racks, and require slowing down to 2,500 to 2,800 RPMs to get the oil to stay below 220 F. After all the modifications and 3.875 R&P FF transaxle can cruise along at 3,000 RPM @ 60 MPH thru there and only have it spike up for a minute or two to 220 F on two of the steeper over passes going North bound into a strong head wind in weather about 95 F. The 1641 thin walled cylinders SP CW crank engine is still running like new over 140,000 miles later and getting around 23 MPG. Thinking of taking the engine down to long block this Winter to reseal it, to stop oil seepage and driving it for another 100,000 or 150,000 miles.... |
can you post you're modifications.....early/late split, cruising rpms/oil pressure, doghouse/356 pulley, oil brand/grade, oil pump size, dizzy, carbs single/dual. Average head temps/oil temps during summer. Thanks Eric. |
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VWCOOL
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Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
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| Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| at 235F, you don't have a problem, Johnny. |
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JohnnyRingo
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Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| VWCOOL wrote: |
| at 235F, you don't have a problem, Johnny. |
I'm OK with that for now.......but I have yet to drive this bus the way I want to, still wanting to drive kinda easy breaking in the motor. I pulled motor yesterday to fit new German fan shroud/cylinder tins, and type4 oil cooler modification...........just looking at this aftermarket tins especially the 36hp doghouse fan with heat ducts are just in the center of the air passage, air has to be redirected around those big tubes. The original fan shroud the heat ducts are enclosed and don't interfere with the air directed over the cylinders.....looks like the heads would cool better without air being restricted or even hot spots....having trouble with intakes going on with oem cylinder tins.....the aftermarket crap the spark plug holes and surrounding tin is not there so a big open hole for air to escape around the intakes......everything is a tight fit, but I have seen engines with oem tins and dual 40-44 webers so I know they fit. |
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VWCOOL
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Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| yes and when you drive it hard, it may get warmer than it does now |
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JohnnyRingo
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Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| VWCOOL wrote: |
| yes and when you drive it hard, it may get warmer than it does now |
That's why I'm doing the modifications now in its early stages to see the different oil/cylinder temps......got Dakota op/ch gauges coming. But gotta get all my fab work/powder coating done.....if I can get these dad blame intakes on. |
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Eric&Barb
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Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24738
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| JohnnyRingo wrote: |
| can you post you're modifications.....early/late split, cruising rpms/oil pressure, doghouse/356 pulley, oil brand/grade, oil pump size, dizzy, carbs single/dual. Average head temps/oil temps during summer. Thanks Eric. |
Sure.
Transaxle:
Big nut standard geared RGBs with .82 4th and 3.875 R&P. First tops out at 12 MPH @ 3,000 RPM. Second is 24 MPH @ 3,000 RPM. Third is 44 MPH @ 3,000 RPM. Fourth lugs below 2,000 RPM @ 45 MPH where all the lower gears do fine as low as 1,500 RPM. Fourth does 58 MPH @ 3,000 RPM and is our cruising speed to keep oil temp below 220 F and get better 23 MPG with 205/75R15s, and with slightly taller side wall 195R15 rear tires does 60 MPH @ 3,000 RPM. Using 607 Almasol gear oil. We only go above 3,000 RPM for short bursts like when up shifting on a steep hill to avoid lugging. Have taken it up to 70 MPH for just a few minutes @ 3,500 RPM twice, in 70 F weather engine oil temp does quickly start to shoot up.
Engine built by Bear's VW machine (RIP) in San Diego CA:
1641 slip in Cofab cylinders, AE dual relief case, 7.15 compression with .020" shims, Brazilian SP heads with 9mm exhaust stems, stock rocker and vavle springs, H 30 PIC carb with 115 main, 133 air correction jet, 52 pilot , counter weighted 69 mm crankshaft, vintage EMPI oil filter/pump, type 4 oil cooler in stock dog house shroud and 35 mm wide stock fan, 356 Porsche gen pulley, DH large crank shaft pulley with Fresh Start belt 15350, Schneider 248-54F (going by deduction for the cam # from the website due to so long ago and memory, suggest if you are building an engine checking with Schneider to see if they have any other low RPM higher torque cam not listed just in case) Volks Type 1 Camshaft designed for the low 1,000 to 3,500 RPM and more torque. 113 905 205 vacuum advance distributor. Castrol 30 Wt. oil doing 40 PSI @ 3,000 RPM in the mid 80s F just this last weekend, run 10/30 WT. late Sept to Late May due to cooler weather, and idle shows no lower than 10 PSI with either oil.
No head temp data. Had problems with spark plug mounted sender. Will fix at next tear down to at least long block the sender directly to the head as done for VW powered aircraft.
http://www.aeroconversions.com/support/instruction_sheets/CHT_Install.pdf
Did run air/fuel mixture gauge and to get carb jetting just right.
The two problems upon receiving the engine were:
Way too stiff of oil relief by pass valve spring. Replaced with stock. See the VW Official Service Manual for post-1967 buses for more spring info there.
Brazilian heads had lots of casting flash blocking up the cooling fins. Removed with circular saw and carbide blade on outside and drill/file between the cylinders. Also drilled open fins similar to shown in Workshop manual for 40 HP heads for a bit more cooling.
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