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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22425
Location: Kimball, Mi
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 Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
Yeah, but in a sense I see what that Rocket guy is saying because in any other thread I've read on this site (not just this forum) that relates to our syndrome the problem can be traced to either a carburetor (float, needle/seat, or other) problem or an ignition related problem. With FI we have all the parts in the engine bay, the harness, 2 relays, the fuel pump, the ECU, etc. to add to the equation. Not that I'm giving up the ghost here FI-wise but that fact that no one has any ideas about what we should do or look at next and the distributor side of the ignition has checked out is a little alarming when this car is supposed to be our daily ride. In the end, the issue is that we can't be guaranteed that we can safely get from one point to another without stalling and I don't really want to get rear-ended because the motor died on a NYC highway just to prove that FI is supposed to be "set it and forget it". In the absence of suggestions I really don't know what to do. Like I asked yesterday, is there anything we should look at next?
In the meantime, since no one has said I shouldn't do so, I've gone ahead and ordered a new ignition switch. Tugging on the FI harness at critical points (ECU, temp sensor in head, MPS, etc.) did not reproduce the stalling. |
Oh I understand 100% of what you're going thru. I had a nagging problem on my old 71 Notch, that even after going thru everything that Ray, Tram, and even Russ had listed I try, I never got it right. I did install a set of carbs, but that was more to make sure it wasn't something in the engine, or related to the engine being the problem. A couple of weeks later, I reinstalled the FI system back on, and went back to trying some things Jim had suggested. In my case, it was a VR that was dieing a slow death. It would have still happened, just later on with the carbs. But, it was Jim's suggestion that I run a route where I was driving about 14-15 miles in mixed speed that allowed me to see what was going on with it.
Since you've replaced the coil, you really haven't had a problem, and moving the wires in the engine bay didn't cause it either, so I think that part might be good to go. The ignition switch being a possibility is just that a possibility, but 1 that you shouldn't write off the list. I say that, as others here on this forum have had problems with them over the years. Even 1 owner/1 family cars have had their switches replaced. My own 65 Notch has had it's 71 only switch replaced, and this was after the 65 switch died. They don't all fail the same way either. Some cause an intermittent (like you're describing), while others get a "no start", but will run with a push start. And then there are those that just fall apart unexpectedly. There's no rhyme or reason to them, but some say adding a relay takes the high amperage off the contacts inside (those that quit in the start mode). There was a thread started last week about a switch that wouldn't stay in the on position too, so there's that 1 to add to the list.
With these cars being over 40 years old, almost anything can cause a problem, and diagnosing it gets harder when you need to keep driving it as a daily driver.
I hope this helps, even if it's not much help.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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| Tram wrote: |
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Clatter
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Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7544
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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Before you go and spend money on an ignition switch,
(and open up that can of worms)
Try my bypass wire idea?
just run a hot wire up from the front fusebox to the coil + side.
Leave it dangling with a spade connector to connect/disconnect up under the dash; someplace easy to reach but not conspicuous.
You can reach up and plug it in while drivng if the car acts up again.
This will eliminate Old Crispy, the ignition switch, and the various connectors associated with all of them as the culprit.
If, when the car stalls again, plugging in the bypass wire fixes it,
Then go buy an ignition switch and deal with the whole surgery...
Yeah, it might be hoakey looking for a while, but it will eliminate some likely suspects...
Another possibility is perhaps a wire getting an intermittent ground somewhere?
Maybe?
I'm no electrical genius, but wouldn't the coil getting shorted a bit, again and again, make it get hot?
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rosevillain
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: roseville, ca
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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When I first bought my square, it would only start intermittently. After going through the ignition system, adding extra grounds for the fuel injection, swapping the ignition switch, rebuilding the FI wiring harness, and checking every FI component multiple times, I replaced the ECU. The car became my daily driver.
Three years later, my car started dieing while driving. The duration of the shutdown was random, from more like a miss, to up to 5 minutes. Mostly this would happen in the morning on the freeway, while I was on my way to work. Rarely in the afternoon, on my way home (except for the one time in the rain when i lost my shoe pushing it out of traffic on the downtown freeway). After going through everything again, I replaced the ECU, and the problem stopped.
It is usually said that if the engine runs at all, you can disregard the ECU. I have found this to not be true in two cases. Is there something peripherally causing my ECUs to burn up? Maybe. Are the capacitors on the 50ish year old circuit board drying up? Maybe. Did swapping the ECU cause my problem to go away for years? Yes. |
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RocketA
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Joined: March 29, 2011
Posts: 453
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| rosevillain wrote: |
| Are the capacitors on the 50ish year old circuit board drying up? Maybe. Did swapping the ECU cause my problem to go away for years? Yes. |
I tried to say something like that the other day but the big man told me to go fish.
If I pulled a 50 yr old NOS Zenith TV set off the shelf would it run? I'm curious. Who's got one we can test?
Can any 50 y.o. piece of electronics that's been in use really be called reliable?
Then it's in a hot engine and goes through seasons and shit like that are all those solders gonna hold?
That's all I meant.
Yeah, carbs have problems but they're mostly physical/mechanical and can be fixed kinda easy.
When you got a car running on 50 year old electronics my .02 cents is it could get a little dicey when you gotta troubleshoot!! |
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Tram
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Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22727
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| RocketA wrote: |
| rosevillain wrote: |
| Are the capacitors on the 50ish year old circuit board drying up? Maybe. Did swapping the ECU cause my problem to go away for years? Yes. |
I tried to say something like that the other day but the big man told me to go fish.
If I pulled a 50 yr old NOS Zenith TV set off the shelf would it run? I'm curious. Who's got one we can test?
Can any 50 y.o. piece of electronics that's been in use really be called reliable?
Then it's in a hot engine and goes through seasons and shit like that are all those solders gonna hold?
That's all I meant.
Yeah, carbs have problems but they're mostly physical/mechanical and can be fixed kinda easy.
When you got a car running on 50 year old electronics my .02 cents is it could get a little dicey when you gotta troubleshoot!! |
So just shoot the horse now because it might break its leg later? 
I'm the wrong guy to question about old electronics- I have a 1958 Telefunken stereo console in the living room that still works flawlessly, a 1977 Pioneer SX-950 receiver that I got for graduation, a 1963 Dual 1009 turntable that i use almost daily, 1960s Magnavox and Goodman speakers that I use with the Dual and Pioneer, my main house fridge is a mid 1950s Hotpoint, my shop fridge is a 1941 Kelvinator, my big freezer is a c.1960 Coldspot 17 upright...
You can ask D/A/N and neena- they've been guests in my dump full of old stuff that 'doesn't work anymore'. 
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rosevillain
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Joined: December 28, 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: roseville, ca
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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Come on now, Tram, I hid under my rock for like 5 pages of these good folks having troubles before I chimed in with another possibility for their hair loss. These were my experiences, ymmv, right? 
When i get off the couch and builds another engine for my square, it will once again be my d-jet daily driver. If the fuel injection doesn't work as it should, I'll be in here bugging you for answers.  |
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Tram
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Joined: May 02, 2003
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Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| rosevillain wrote: |
Come on now, Tram, I hid under my rock for like 5 pages of these good folks having troubles before I chimed in with another possibility for their hair loss. These were my experiences, ymmv, right?
When i get off the couch and builds another engine for my square, it will once again be my d-jet daily driver. If the fuel injection doesn't work as it should, I'll be in here bugging you for answers. |
No, believe it or not, I do understand. What didn't break- ever- 40 years ago is now, well, 40 years older, LOL.
My point is, though, that in this particular case, all of the symptoms point to an ignition issue and not a fuel issue. Therefore, like Spock would say, replacing the fuel system in order to fix this problem does not seem logical.
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22425
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: |
My point is, though, that in this particular case, all of the symptoms point to an ignition issue and not a fuel issue. Therefore, like Spock would say, replacing the fuel system in order to fix this problem does not seem logical. |
Agreed. I actually like the FI, when it's working correctly. On my old Notch, once I fixed my issue, I was good to go. My wife's 70 Fastback has a cobbled together FI (from good old used parts) that I put in back in 2008. It works great. 
But to me it does sound ignition related.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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D/A/N
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Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 2227
Location: 11222
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:26 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the support, gents!
One of the biggest annoyances with diagnosing this problem is that it doesn't happen often enough!! Remember, I first experienced it a few times back in February and March but not again until 3 weeks ago. Now it's been twice in a few weeks, but it's happened in such bad locations (sides of highways/busy intersections) that it's not really possible to go thoughtfully looking around for causes.....rather we've made snap guesses and each time they've gotten us home  .
When this first happened, the car would start back up on the 1st or 2nd try, but not any longer. It seems that we have to replace a part though I wonder if what we're really doing is letting time pass while something cools down?
If this is probably an ignition problem, have we satisfactorily eliminated the secondary side? Plug gaps and plug condition were good as were the plug wires, points, dwell, timing. Even the coils I've replaced still Ω out correctly. Should we move on to another section of the system? If so, how and what?
I like Clatter's idea of testing out the wire from the fuse box to the + side of the coil by running an interchangeable replacement. I just have to get the correct gauge of wire. But why does this wire run from the #8 fuse (wiper motor?!?) to the coil? Also, the wiring diagram shows wires on both tabs at this fuse but we only have wires off of one side. I wonder the PO's confused mechanics messed up our wiring? |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
I like Clatter's idea of testing out the wire from the fuse box to the + side of the coil by running an interchangeable replacement. I just have to get the correct gauge of wire. But why does this wire run from the #8 fuse (wiper motor?!?) to the coil? Also, the wiring diagram shows wires on both tabs at this fuse but we only have wires off of one side. I wonder the PO's confused mechanics messed up our wiring? |
I just checked out the diagram and there's a bit more wiring than in the '65! But anyway, follow the black wire out from terminal 15 at the ignition switch, that's the wire that powers the coil, but first it goes from ignition switch to fuse box and connects to the "input" side of the 4th (from right) fuse.
Note that there is a little bus bar connecting the 4th and 5th fuse, this is an electrical connection between the two. Note that power to the coil does not flow through the fuse.
Power goes ignition switch -> 4th fuse input side -> bus bar to 5th fuse input side -> back to coil on Ol' Crispy. It never actually passes through the fuses, so that is an unfused wire. Don't short it!
The items on the other side of those fuses are fused and are powered only when the ignition switch is on, that would be the wiper switch & motor off of the 5th fuse and brake lights / turn signals on the 4th fuse.
What wires do you have attached to those two fuses? The wiper motor should be on its own (16 amp) fuse as it draws a lot of current.
As for the proper gauge wire, the diagram shows it as 2.5 sq. mm. so 12 gauge would do the job. Might want to put an inline fuse on it too just in case.
Incidentally, tied in with Ol' Crispy at the fuse box should be another smaller gauge black wire (the diagram makes it appears as if the two wires are crimped into the same terminal) that goes off to terminal 86 on the FI system power relay. In Bosch relay terminal numbering, 86 is the "coil battery" terminal, i.e. that's the 12V signal that causes the relay to close and provide power through from battery to the FI system. If that wire is loose or otherwise has a flakey intermittent bad connection either at fusebox or at the relay, it would be shutting off the entire fuel injection system like flipping a switch. So check that one out too.
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2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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D/A/N
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Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 2227
Location: 11222
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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Ok....so another incident today. We're gluttons for punishment so we packed up the car for a two day camping trip without doing any ignition wire investigation. After 2 hours of driving, we stopped to pinch off the new AAR from Jim because it was sticking even worse than the other one. Got back on the highway and after about 10 minutes the missing started. 5 times over the course of two minutes. Engine was losing a bit of power in between misses. Then, all of a sudden the accelerator pedal stopped having an effect on engine speed but the engine was still running!!!! I kept pressing the pedal but nothing happened!?! I got off the highway by downshifting and the engine finally stalled b/c I couldn't give it gas.
Then, same as last week. Crank crank but no start. Then start up for a second then stall then no start. Of course we were on a blind curve off a Thruway exit ramp! Emptied out the back of the car then checked points. They were fine but the distributor was so hot it burned my hand. Coil was not as hot as last time. Nothing else was as hot as the distributor.
At a loss for what to do (and in a shitty spot to explore the problem) we did what worked last time: we replaced the coil (with the same black one we removed when we stalled last week) and the damned thing started right back up again! WTF!!!!
If it's the ignition system, then why would the throttle stop working but the engine keep running?
If it's not the ignition system, then why would replacing the coil work twice?
Why was the distributor blazing hot this time (but not last time) and the coil much cooler than it was last time?
Why does it take 2 hours of highway driving for the problem to manifest? |
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neena
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Joined: September 10, 2010
Posts: 581
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Update: we're now stranded on the side of the highway and can confirm that it has nothing to do with the coil 😒.
Symptoms: Bucked, stopped responding to pedal, then stalled. This has now happened 3 times within 5 minutes of driving back onto the highway. (Trying to make it to next exit)
Daniel got it to start by popping the clutch in 2nd as we rolled down a hill on the shoulder, but since the car doesn't respond to the throttle, it dies again.
Could the ECU be failing??
*edit*
Another update: after letting it sit for a few minutes, it started, but as soon as the gas pedal was pressed, the engine died again. Back to waiting for it to start...and calling AAA...because now it won't hold idle |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
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Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Is the accelerator cable still intact and operating the throttle?
Massive vacuum leak? Did a hose pop off somewhere?
It sucks that you are stranded but on the bright side it seems you are on the verge of definitively diagnosing the problem.
Do you have a meter with you?
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2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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D/A/N
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Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 2227
Location: 11222
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| sjbartnik wrote: |
Is the accelerator cable still intact and operating the throttle?
Massive vacuum leak? Did a hose pop off somewhere?
It sucks that you are stranded but on the bright side it seems you are on the verge of definitively diagnosing the problem.
Do you have a meter with you? |
Unfortunately, we left the Fluke at home. That's a first! Throttle cable is definitely still intact and operating the throttle though the experience was as if it wasn't connected at all.
While sitting waiting for the tow truck I thought of all the things that would prevent the car from holding an idle and/or from having throttle response. The only one we had a spare of was the MPS (NOS from Jim), so after a few minutes I decided why the hell not try it and whaddya know, the thing fired up and held an idle. Tow truck came and we got a tow to the next exit on the Thruway but I was able to drive on and off the truck and around a few parking lots, but now that it's dark out, we decided to spend the night at a hotel and venture forth on the road tomorrow. We're only 45 minutes away from our destination, but why risk it at night.
Anyway, the MPS is barely holding vacuum...it's weak and runs down quickly. Also, when doing the "suck test" the adjusting screw moves in and out which strikes me as odd. I opened it up and nothing looked awry with the diaphragm, but I wonder if someone (Tram??) knows if there's a test for those.
MPS failure!?!? |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
we decided to spend the night at a hotel and venture forth on the road tomorrow. We're only 45 minutes away from our destination, but why risk it at night.
MPS failure!?!? |
Good plan. Well an NOS MPS is the closest you'll ever get to an un-fucked-with one so I'll be curious to see what happens tomorrow.
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Tram
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Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22727
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
| sjbartnik wrote: |
Is the accelerator cable still intact and operating the throttle?
Massive vacuum leak? Did a hose pop off somewhere?
It sucks that you are stranded but on the bright side it seems you are on the verge of definitively diagnosing the problem.
Do you have a meter with you? |
Unfortunately, we left the Fluke at home. That's a first! Throttle cable is definitely still intact and operating the throttle though the experience was as if it wasn't connected at all.
While sitting waiting for the tow truck I thought of all the things that would prevent the car from holding an idle and/or from having throttle response. The only one we had a spare of was the MPS (NOS from Jim), so after a few minutes I decided why the hell not try it and whaddya know, the thing fired up and held an idle. Tow truck came and we got a tow to the next exit on the Thruway but I was able to drive on and off the truck and around a few parking lots, but now that it's dark out, we decided to spend the night at a hotel and venture forth on the road tomorrow. We're only 45 minutes away from our destination, but why risk it at night.
Anyway, the MPS is barely holding vacuum...it's weak and runs down quickly. Also, when doing the "suck test" the adjusting screw moves in and out which strikes me as odd. I opened it up and nothing looked awry with the diaphragm, but I wonder if someone (Tram??) knows if there's a test for those.
MPS failure!?!? |
Could be the seal between the two halves, too. I was going to say that the "no throttle response" sounds like a big vacuum leak- and it sounds as if that is what your MAP may have become.
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jadney
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Joined: January 13, 2005
Posts: 263
Location: Madison, WI, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
While sitting waiting for the tow truck I thought of all the things that would prevent the car from holding an idle and/or from having throttle response. The only one we had a spare of was the MPS (NOS from Jim), so after a few minutes I decided why the hell not try it and whaddya know, the thing fired up and held an idle. Tow truck came and we got a tow to the next exit on the Thruway but I was able to drive on and off the truck and around a few parking lots, but now that it's dark out, we decided to spend the night at a hotel and venture forth on the road tomorrow. We're only 45 minutes away from our destination, but why risk it at night.
Anyway, the MPS is barely holding vacuum...it's weak and runs down quickly. Also, when doing the "suck test" the adjusting screw moves in and out which strikes me as odd. I opened it up and nothing looked awry with the diaphragm, but I wonder if someone (Tram??) knows if there's a test for those.
MPS failure!?!? |
Not holding vacuum! Adjusting screw moving!!! WTF??? That's all bad. A '68-9 MPS should not have a diaphragm, that's only a '70-1 feature, so I'm hoping you're referring to the aneroid, the little bronze bellows-like thing that falls out when you open up the MPS.
Congratulations, it sounds like you may have found your problem. If the adjusting screw is loose enough to move, then there's a significant vacuum leak around it. That is making the FI run rich, which wouldn't be so bad with a cold engine, but could be too rich to run once the engine warms up. The leak could also be inconsistent, varying depending on how much oil is in the threads, how warm that oil is, and where the oil is.
The NOS MPS should last a lifetime as long as you don't mess with it, and it will be interesting to see if your A/F ratio stays more consistent now that you have a better MPS. If you're interested, I should be able to fix and recalibrate your old MPS. I have good replacement O-rings for them now, too.
I really hate to see people mess with the factory MPS calibration. Inevitably this just makes thing worse. Most of the time they're trying to fix a problem that's actually elsewhere, by messing up the MPS calibration. The only real solution is to put the MPS back to the factory setting and find the REAL problem. As Gene Berg would have said, "It's putting a band-aid on your knee to fix the problem in your ankle." Sorry, end of rant....
Replacing the MPS O-ring, however, is something that can be helpful without the unintended consequences. The MPS really needs to be pretty much air tight to work correctly.
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D/A/N
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I guess it's rarely the FI until it's the FI..... 
300 problem free miles since that shitty Thursday night on the side of the Thruway. Actually, we have a slight new issue in that sometimes, at warm idle, there is an irritating squeak/chirp and it's not the rubbing block on the points. Gonna have to get listening with our automotive stethoscope and figure out where/what it is b/c it's annoying. But as for issues, I'll take an intermittent squeak over a failing MPS every time. That just sucked!!!
It turns out I didn't put Jim's NOS sensor in there.....it's sitting on a shelf in our apartment. I should have remembered that it was marked with a black "JA"  but who remembers that stuff when fussing with parts on the side of a 65 mph highway? In any event, the one I put in was untampered with and the car has been running quite happily ever since. At some point, we'll plug in the 02 sensor to see what the #s actually are.
On the failed one, there's nothing visibly wrong with the aneroid, but this is the first one I've seen so what do I know? IIRC, this MPS was assembled out of two different sensors but I don't remember why this was necessary. Geo, do you?
Is it the case that the reason for the epoxy over the adjusting screw is less to prevent "tampering" and more to prevent possible vac leaks there?
And now for the (unanswerable?) question.....what causes an MPS to fail? |
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sjbartnik
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Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
And now for the (unanswerable?) question.....what causes an MPS to fail? |
I suspect all the usual things, 45 years of heat, vibration, oil, gas fumes, etc...
Glad you finally found the problem! I figured since we hadn't heard from you the rest of the weekend it must be good news.
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2000 Kawasaki W650
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Tram
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Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| sjbartnik wrote: |
| D/A/N wrote: |
And now for the (unanswerable?) question.....what causes an MPS to fail? |
I suspect all the usual things, 45 years of heat, vibration, oil, gas fumes, etc...
Glad you finally found the problem! |
46 years, actually- and yeah.
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