| Author |
Message |
joem32380
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 24
|
 Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:22 pm Post subject: Front Beam |
 |
|
Can someone recommend a good builder/seller of a 2" narrowed, adjustable link pin front beam with shock towers.
I am getting kind of overwhelmed with all the websites and what looks to be crappy parts.
I am looking at a few now like
Airkewld
Franks Fab Shop
Warrior
etc.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Would like to stay under $800 that includes the shortened leaf springs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Lo Cash John
Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2004
Posts: 2246
Location: Jacksonville, FL
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 3:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
CB Performance sells a -2" beam for a good price.
Whatever beam you buy, make SURE it uses bearings to support the control arms, not bushings.
_________________
www.LoCashRacing.org
More brains than bucks...Believe it or not!!
If you actually drive your VW, you need www.AirMapp.com
My boss told me I need to work on my mutli-tasking. So now when I use the bathroom at work I surf The Samba on my iPhone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Airkewld
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2003
Posts: 3150
Location: Goodyear, AZ USA
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ace
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2003
Posts: 1903
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Locash's answer didn't need any fixing. Needle bearings are the best by far. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Airkewld
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2003
Posts: 3150
Location: Goodyear, AZ USA
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ace wrote: |
| Locash's answer needed fixing. Needle bearings are the 2nd best. |
Remembering how enjoyable past posts between us have been, you can take my opinion with a grain of salt or think otherwise, I hope I get to meet you some day and give you bro hug.
Bearings
https://www.facebook.com/Airkewld.VWs/videos/10153336683932808/
Delrin
Link
The difference is control arms are not not remade. They all have wear. Replacement bearings have been remade to stock specs but now have slack.
Arms rebuilt like a set of rods, polished to fit the application will fit far superior to bearings, not an opinion, not any of that. It's a proven fact. Sorry.
Enough of that, joem32380, we are here to help. Not sell you anything, just educate you on options, regardless if our fit the bill or not.
_________________
TheSamba members-only discount - Samba24
Win a FREE Chassis Rebuild - https://airkewld.co/WinAChassis
Learn from a PRO on Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/Airkewld
FAQ - https://airkewld.co/FAQ
View our Industry Leading Products - https://www.airkewld.com/Products-s/2322.htm
We made a iPhone Ringtone with a Classic VW Turbo Engine - https://airkewld.co/RingtoneTurbo
YouTube Channel - https://airkewld.co/SubSamba |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ace
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2003
Posts: 1903
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
Nope. Bearings will always offer the least mechanical resistance. No matter how much polishing and magical grease you use. I can poke tons of holes through your comparison article if you like.
Falsifying quotes of others aren't gonna change that either.
[quote="Airkewld"]
| Ace wrote: |
| Locash's answer needed fixing. Needle bearings are the 2nd best. |
The second best is the response YOU gave as a correction to John. Why did you change it to where I Said it? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lime-bug
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2011
Posts: 6
Location: Stoke-on-Tent
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Airkewld
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2003
Posts: 3150
Location: Goodyear, AZ USA
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ace wrote: |
| Nope. Bearings will always offer the least mechanical resistance. No matter how much polishing and magical grease you use. I can poke tons of holes through your comparison article if you like. |
If we are only talking about mechanical resistance, Ace, your right. But we're not. So you are not right.
If new control arms are a produced item, built to be the exact spec of the now reproduced roller bearings, you are right. But they are not, so your statement has holes in it. Is it easy to pop control arms in a bearing equipped beam? Yes. Does it matter if the OEM control arms are worn or not? Nope, they will still pop in. Is having slop in a control arm acceptable to you? Better yet, Just because it has better rolling resistance, it is better, even if it has slop? If you answer the question yes, you are doing this post a disservice. The answer is no in all aspects. Until new control arms are made, bearings will be second best. Poly urethane is the worst and because delrin can be made to certain specs, indicate the entire arm and allows for the arms to be polished to slide in and fit nicely, nothing is better. There is absolutely no debate, regardless of how much you like to hound my posts and try to find holes. Real life experience with these parts everyday.
Unless you have rebuilt more than 500 VW beams or fabricated over 5000 beams, listened to feedback from our clients, the differences we find together, you are not going to have more knowledge than us. We are OCD in what we do and are always polishing our craft, whether or not you like us or not.
_________________
TheSamba members-only discount - Samba24
Win a FREE Chassis Rebuild - https://airkewld.co/WinAChassis
Learn from a PRO on Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/Airkewld
FAQ - https://airkewld.co/FAQ
View our Industry Leading Products - https://www.airkewld.com/Products-s/2322.htm
We made a iPhone Ringtone with a Classic VW Turbo Engine - https://airkewld.co/RingtoneTurbo
YouTube Channel - https://airkewld.co/SubSamba |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joem32380
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 24
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
thanks Lime. Checking out your site now. I have never hear of your shop. Adding it to my list.
Airkewld is at the top and my shopping cart is full, just don't have $900 to spend right now. (beam, springs, install kit and tie rods)
warrior is out (they only go up)
CB performance is on the fence (they use high production parts, looking for a small business to give money to. Just how I prefer to do buy stuff)
Lime is now in the mix.
Punchdrunk is out...too many bad reviews, but from what I have seen it isn't the product as much as it is the customer service. too bad really.
Lucky's fab shop can enter the race if I want to wait a couple of months for delivery.
any others out there? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joem32380
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2015
Posts: 24
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
lime I was unable to add the beam to my cart to see final pricing. Any idea what typical cost on shipping is from UK to Chicago, IL for a beam. 2" narrowed, rods and ends included, with adjusters and shock towers.
For the argument of the bearings....just about every beam builder I have spoken too and the number now tops 10, went with the derlan bushings over everything else.
Most flat out said no Poly, it sucks. And for needle bearings, it was just a fitment preference. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FullFender
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2014
Posts: 647
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
Valley Autowerks...Sam was more then helpful with any questions I had (SlowLow as known here on the samba)  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lime-bug
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2011
Posts: 6
Location: Stoke-on-Tent
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| joem32380 wrote: |
lime I was unable to add the beam to my cart to see final pricing. Any idea what typical cost on shipping is from UK to Chicago, IL for a beam. 2" narrowed, rods and ends included, with adjusters and shock towers.
For the argument of the bearings....just about every beam builder I have spoken too and the number now tops 10, went with the derlan bushings over everything else.
Most flat out said no Poly, it sucks. And for needle bearings, it was just a fitment preference. |
Shipping to the US would be approximately £125 just because of the weight of the item
Thanks
Alex
_________________
Limebug Limited, The home of Hotrod and High Performance Classic Volkswagen Parts & Accessories |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Q-Dog
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010
Posts: 8699
Location: Sunset, Louisiana
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
I prefer bearings over bushings for a stock suspension. Since the OP is posting in the Buggy/Kit car forum, should we assUme this is not a stock car? What is the application for this narrowed beam?
_________________
Brian
'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Airkewld
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2003
Posts: 3150
Location: Goodyear, AZ USA
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lo Cash John
Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2004
Posts: 2246
Location: Jacksonville, FL
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
Pete (Airkewld) you are correct in that I was referring to polyurethane bushings when I said to avoid bushings. I must admit I have no personal experience with Delrin bushings in beams.
Having watched your video, I still have concerns over the level of stiction in the front arms. Yes the arms could be made to move with one hand, but compared to the factory VW design, you still have a LOT of drag going on there. With a proper set of bearings, the arms will freely dangle and can be cycled with a pinky finger or less.
This freedom of movement becomes even more important on a short wheelbase buggy. With the body removed and the the shorter wheelbase, the front suspension now carries several hundred pounds less weight. Any unnecessary stiction will add to handling problems and poor ride quality. This is one reason buggy owners will reduce the oil viscosity in front shocks to improve ride quality.
On a full bodied and slammed bug/ghia/T3 with air ride, compressors, tanks, etc, this isn't an issue one bit. But a buggy is a little different animal and the little details can make a difference. If you can further reduce the stiction in your beams, then they'd be a great option for street buggy owners.
Now, I haven't built or rebuilt 500 beams but I have built about 50, from stock to -6", linkpin and ball joint. Several of those were for buggies and some of them are on buggies belonging to posters on this forum. My advice is to not brag about big numbers in the VW scene. GEX has built more VW engines than anybody except Volkswagen but you couldn't give one to a true VW guy. Your company has a solid reputation and is known for making great parts. Take the little things you've learned here and use them to further improve your product and then it might be a good fit for a buggy.
_________________
www.LoCashRacing.org
More brains than bucks...Believe it or not!!
If you actually drive your VW, you need www.AirMapp.com
My boss told me I need to work on my mutli-tasking. So now when I use the bathroom at work I surf The Samba on my iPhone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
didget69
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2004
Posts: 4927
Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
The VW factory, for some odd reason, seemed to prefer installing bearings in beams instead of bushings - regardless of Polyurethane or Delrin.
Airkewled makes and markets a fine product & I'm sure, has many happy customers. Urethane bushings, by the very nature of the material, will have more 'stiction' & resistance to allowing the torsion arms to rotate - Delrin is slicker, but still needs to be reamed to size to fit the torsion arms back in after bushing installation.
No reaming needed in using stock torsion arm needle bearings into beam - Pick your poison.
bnc
_________________
I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Airkewld
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2003
Posts: 3150
Location: Goodyear, AZ USA
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Lo Cash John wrote: |
Having watched your video, I still have concerns over the level of stiction in the front arms. Yes the arms could be made to move with one hand, but compared to the factory VW design, you still have a LOT of drag going on there. With a proper set of bearings, the arms will freely dangle and can be cycled with a pinky finger or less.
This freedom of movement becomes even more important on a short wheelbase buggy. With the body removed and the the shorter wheelbase, the front suspension now carries several hundred pounds less weight. Any unnecessary stiction will add to handling problems and poor ride quality. This is one reason buggy owners will reduce the oil viscosity in front shocks to improve ride quality.
Now, I haven't built or rebuilt 500 beams but I have built about 50, from stock to -6", linkpin and ball joint. Several of those were for buggies and some of them are on buggies belonging to posters on this forum. My advice is to not brag about big numbers in the VW scene. GEX has built more VW engines than anybody except Volkswagen but you couldn't give one to a true VW guy. Your company has a solid reputation and is known for making great parts. Take the little things you've learned here and use them to further improve your product and then it might be a good fit for a buggy. |
Thanks for the reply John. I made mention of the numbers for Ace, who has a tendency to state technical terms and give us a hard time when ever there is a reply, kind of like a bully try to flick the nerds ear. Just needed to reiterate that the OP.
In regard do the stiction, roller bearings allow anything to rotate. When trying to educate and understand budget thinking, it does not equate to me, as a designer. I can understand, off road in a little manx, cruising in the fields or on the sand at a beach. It probably doesn't matter what you have as a bearing alternative.
Driving on the street, at different speeds, that is where I am trying to educate and relate and build products outside the beach/field thinking. I have seen and read many stories about softening the ride, removing torsions, oil or gas shocks for different weights, all relative to the user and what it is used for. I can say that the difference in weight is there and should be taken into consideration, but I would still prefer something that has zero play that something that has play. Bearings on a drum, flywheel, connecting rods, all have a preferred amount of thrust/play. Unless I missed it, I do not think end play in a control arm to a bearing has a "OEM Soec" play amount. It has been overlooked for so long. We are, or maybe some one earlier, has shed light on this, we are just reinforcing it.
_________________
TheSamba members-only discount - Samba24
Win a FREE Chassis Rebuild - https://airkewld.co/WinAChassis
Learn from a PRO on Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/Airkewld
FAQ - https://airkewld.co/FAQ
View our Industry Leading Products - https://www.airkewld.com/Products-s/2322.htm
We made a iPhone Ringtone with a Classic VW Turbo Engine - https://airkewld.co/RingtoneTurbo
YouTube Channel - https://airkewld.co/SubSamba |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Airkewld
Samba Member
Joined: November 14, 2003
Posts: 3150
Location: Goodyear, AZ USA
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| didget69 wrote: |
The VW factory, for some odd reason, seemed to prefer installing bearings in beams instead of bushings - regardless of Polyurethane or Delrin.
Airkewled makes and markets a fine product & I'm sure, has many happy customers. Urethane bushings, by the very nature of the material, will have more 'stiction' & resistance to allowing the torsion arms to rotate - Delrin is slicker, but still needs to be reamed to size to fit the torsion arms back in after bushing installation.
No reaming needed in using stock torsion arm needle bearings into beam - Pick your poison.
bnc |
I don't know year ranges, but bushings were in beams before bearings were around. if I recall, it was a bake-o-lite material. I do not know why they changed it, weather it was a grease to bushing issue or cost issue, who knows but it was available.
I think I will have to figure a better way of explaining delrin and if reaming is necessary for the application.
SACO was the first one to implement delrin. They built it in various sizes to fit different tolerances of tubing, DOM or mild steel. They recommended finding which tube works best and then reaming them bushing to the control arm sizes. SACO instructed users to do this. That being said, we do NOT build them the same way.
We machine them to fit 120 wall DOM to fit a NOS control arm. We engineer it to take in account the press fit when designing them. Understanding the control arm has taken a bunch of abuse in it's lifetime, we are educating our clients and others on this forum that the arms, like rods in an engine or valve seats in a head, need some attention by rebuilding polishing and finishing the arms to fit in the delrin bushing nicely, with out removing any material by reaming.
I know of 3 people whom have reamed the bushings. 2 of those, I know for sure, they have purchased replacements because of the reaming and we have personally polished the arms for them for a precise fit.
So I guess there are options for everyone, but we provide the education for free, hopefully we earn the business because of it.
_________________
TheSamba members-only discount - Samba24
Win a FREE Chassis Rebuild - https://airkewld.co/WinAChassis
Learn from a PRO on Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/Airkewld
FAQ - https://airkewld.co/FAQ
View our Industry Leading Products - https://www.airkewld.com/Products-s/2322.htm
We made a iPhone Ringtone with a Classic VW Turbo Engine - https://airkewld.co/RingtoneTurbo
YouTube Channel - https://airkewld.co/SubSamba |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ace
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2003
Posts: 1903
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
If doing work for Toyota , Nissan, GM and Tesla is being a bully so be it. Being able to back up my research makes me a bully. Hilarious. People who "design" bushimgs in plastics should at least know what "durometer" means. Yes having play in parts is not a bad thing. Any designer should know what tolerances are and why they even exist. Part expand with heat. Start off with zero play turns into an interference fit with heat. A Bently manual has all the tolerances for the parts in a front end for a reason.
You had someone build 5000 beams for you. That is hardly a production run where i come from.
The main problem with ANY plastics as bushings is that it will change the dampening factor with weight. This also goes with dynamic weighting applied to the front end such when going over bumps, hills, cornering and braking. When weight transfers to the front end, the resistance to rotation changes as there is no mechanical relief like in a needle bearing.
If you do use plastics as bushings, use synthetic grease that is plastics safe. Delrin and urethane are highly reactive to common automotive greases. I personaly use superlube synthetic grease. It even comes in cartridges for grease guns. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Q-Dog
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010
Posts: 8699
Location: Sunset, Louisiana
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Airkewld wrote: |
| Q-Dog wrote: |
| I prefer bearings over bushings for a stock suspension. |
Can you give me your reasoning for this? And is this statement based on poly bushings or delrin vs bearings? Why would you prefer one over the other? |
Stock parts, no reaming or fitting to make them work, available from most VW vendors, proven technology, fantastic ride, long life.
If I were building an offroader I would consider bushings, but with the understanding that they don't have the same life as a bearing.
_________________
Brian
'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
