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Das67bus
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Joined: April 06, 2008
Posts: 242
Location: Prescott, AZ
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 Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:13 pm Post subject: Electrical Fires |
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I have read several posts about electrical fires. What is/are the main cause/causes for electrical fires?
I assume it is wiring/fuse related, but what should you look for when inspecting wiring? My main concern is under the dash.
Thanks!!
m
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joe56vw
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Joined: June 24, 2004
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Location: Olympia wa
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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stupidity and poor maintenance are mostly what cause any fire on any vehicle 
look for poorly done hack jobs and things spliced into the OG harness
you would be surprised what past owner/shitty mechanics have done to just get a car running
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=559931&highlight=
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olliehank47
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Joined: May 04, 2011
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| joe56vw wrote: |
stupidity and poor maintenance are mostly what cause any fire on any vehicle
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This^^, with special emphasis on poor maintenance.
The wiring on a bus is so simple and straight forward (from the factory) that it should be easy to maintain--that means regular visual inspections of exposed insulation, regular inspection of rubber grommets where the wires pass through the sheet metal, and the one thing most often ignored, regular cleaning and securing of all electrical connections.
As connections age, oxidation builds up which increases resistance which, in turn, increases heat in the wire. Add to this the fact that much of the power in the wiring under the dash taps off the headlight switch and/or the ignition swtch, which are not fused, and you have a real potential of overheated wires causing a fire. Nothing in the engine compartment is fused either and the wiring there is subject to extreme heat and vibration which makes the insulation brittle and allows for wires to come in contact with their surroundings.
Bottom line, make your visually exposed wires part of your routine inspections and maintenance. Keep the connections clean and tight, protect them with dielectric grease, make sure grommets are present and route wires (especially in the engine compartment) is a way that minimizes movement and exposure to heat. |
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BarryL 
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Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14266
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:58 am Post subject: |
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Don't know what year you have but this is a fairly simple bus wire plan.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/bus_59_USA.jpg
If you can figure out which symbol is the battery you can follow the black top wire to the fat solid red wire up to the dash. Notice it goes to the fuse box but then continues on to the light switch then to the ignition switch unfused. That whole circuit is vulnerable to shorting as well as the wire that goes back to the engine coil and choke when you are running. Like others have posted, if you have things in a safe condition you'll be okay. |
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Bruce Amacker
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Das67bus
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Joined: April 06, 2008
Posts: 242
Location: Prescott, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce Amacker wrote: |
I disagree with all previous responses. The #1 reason for most VW electrical fires is VW's refusal to put circuit protection in the main feed wire going from the battery (or VR) to the dashboard. I install a 40 amp MaxiFuse in all of my own and my friends cars to avoid fires caused by electrical shorts. Virtually 100% of modern cars have this protection in one way or another, but vintage VW's don't. I wrote a detailed article about this a while back, read it here:
http://www.covvc.org/technical.htm Click on "Protecting Your Electrical System" |
Bruce - so on my '67 bus, the fuse would go on the wire running from the starter to the ignition switch or the fuse box?
Thanks!
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Bruce Amacker
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Das67bus
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Joined: April 06, 2008
Posts: 242
Location: Prescott, AZ
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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So the wire you have cut into the fuse block goes from the starter to where? That looks pretty clean.
Thx!
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Bruce Amacker
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Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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TinCanFab
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srfndoc
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Joined: August 21, 2010
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Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:17 am Post subject: |
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Hey Bruce,
Where did you find that 40amp fuse holder? I did a quick google search but didn't see one like that. Also, just to be clear:
Starter ------------- Fuse ---------- VR -------------- Ignition Switch
In your photo I don't see the red wire go from the Fuse to the VR but I'm
guessing it does but is looped behind the firewall. Also, what gauge wire do
you recommend?
Thanks
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Bruce Amacker
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Joined: December 26, 2007
Posts: 1786
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| srfndoc wrote: |
Hey Bruce,
Where did you find that 40amp fuse holder? I did a quick google search but didn't see one like that. Also, just to be clear:
Starter -----> Fuse----> VR ----> Ignition Switch
Yes, correct.
In your photo I don't see the red wire go from the Fuse to the VR but I'm
guessing it does but is looped behind the firewall. Also, what gauge wire do
you recommend?
Thanks |
There's a hundred different ways to put in a 40a fuse with at least 5 different physical (but still 40a) fuse sizes. I rarely pick the cheapest way to do things as I like quality. This fuse holder is about $27 (IIRC?) with the clear cover which has no picture but you can see it in my pics:
http://terminalsupplyco.com/Store/Default.aspx?CAT=MAXIBLOCKS&PCAT=52790#Categories
Here's another one I did lately with a lower cost fuseholder while converting a '66 Beetle to 12v:
Along with hold down tabs for the main power feed. This will go into the rear seat area to feed the VR and main fuse, which I'll install soon. Polyloom, grommets, sealed connectors, you guys know what my work looks like by now.
I put a rubber flap over the area and glued it down for added protection in case a fat guy sits in the back or the seat blows a spring.
I like Maxifuses because they have big blades, Napa has that fuseholder above on the shelf for about $11 IIRC. You can buy it on Ebay for 1/2 of that.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-GAUGE-INLINE-MAXI-FUSE-...27e65c5cfd
I use 10ga for the wire size, you can get the fuseholder above in 6, 8, or 10ga sizes. In the above pics there's a solder joint with heat shrink inside the Polyloom a few inches from the fuseholder, if you look close you can see the bulge. A sealed butt splice would also work there but be slightly lower quality (but still acceptable to most).
You'll notice I put heat shrink tubing on any exposed female spade that's hot, too. On both my Ghia and my bus I also put a 15a fuseholder inline with the black coil feed that comes off the ig sw. This will blow faster than the 40 and not cook the ig sw if the choke heater/coil hot/idle solenoid wire falls off or shorts out (common).
Good Luck,
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'66 Deluxe Bus
'65 Standard Bus
Build threads:
'66- http://www.leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2888&sid=54d8dedfb3822f99c7f2ea430cb4e856
'65- http://leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4263 |
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Thompson2
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Joined: June 06, 2018
Posts: 659
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Bruce - any chance you've got updated links for your pics? I was looking into adding a fuse and was hoping to see where you mounted the fuse and how you got the positive battery cable and the fused line though the sheet metal, assuming you mounted the fuse in the engine bay.
Thanks!
Michael |
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Abscate
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Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 4:33 am Post subject: Re: Electrical Fires |
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The cause of electrical fires is the owner. 95% of the wiring shown here is poor workmanship, the pictures above are therefreshingly 5% exception.
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Bruce Amacker
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Joined: December 26, 2007
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Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| Thompson2 wrote: |
[
Hey Bruce - any chance you've got updated links for your pics? I was looking into adding a fuse and was hoping to see where you mounted the fuse and how you got the positive battery cable and the fused line though the sheet metal, assuming you mounted the fuse in the engine bay.
Thanks!
Michael |
OK, you asked for it. I take a zillion pictures when I'm working to document stuff. (I'm an instructor and sometimes use these in class) When you do work for people they appreciate seeing documentation of nice quality work, more than "well, it works now". When I had the truck shop we did a LOT of wiring to keep old junk on the road so I've had 40+ years experience doing this.
In no particular order:
This is a bus I did lately, you can't see the power feed really well as it's under the battery cable. There's an 8ga eyelet with 2-10ga wires soldered into it and shrink tubed. One of the 10ga wires feeds the 40a fuse, the other is the charge wire from the alt or gen.
I think this is on an old Beetle, I've installed many 40A main fuses on both 6/12v and T1/T2.
This is my Ghia.
I've use both expensive and cheap fuseholders, the cheap ones seem to work just as well. This one is $3.
I think this is on an old Beetle, the fuseholder and cover are about $30 for this style from Terminal Supply!
Here's the expensive one in my '66:
I think this is a '57 Oval Beetle, again 2 10ga soldered into a 8ga eyelet and shrink tubed. One wire is the charge wire, the other feeds the 40a fuse:
Fuse mounted near battery:
I think this is a bus:
The power feed comes from the starter, to the 40a, then to the VR where is splits off and feeds the dash.
Here's a nice shot of the 8ga eyelet soldered and heat shrink tubed. One wire is the charge wire, the other is the 40a feed.
Here's the setup on a bus, there's a lot of splices here and all are soldered and shrink tubed:
You'll probably need some of these:
Another upgrade I commonly do is in the dash, the factory uses jumpers for everything, I eliminate those and feed power directly to the IG, HLS, and FB.
Comments:
1. Forget crimp terminals, solder everything.
2. Use shrink tube on all splices, and on spades to protect them from inadvertent shorting. The good shrink tube is labeled as "Marine" as it has glue/sealer inside of it and the tubing is thicker. Available everywhere, even HF has it.
3. Replace any OEG grommets as they will be dry rotted. Buying larger grommets can prove to be a big problem as Napa and many parts stores don't go above 1/2" or 5/8". You will probably need to drill an extra hole to run wires through. If you can't find grommets locally buy a few sizes on Ebay ahead of time. Forget assortments as they won't go larger enough. Fry's might have them if you have one nearby. Step-drills work great for drilling big holes in sheetmetal, if you don't have one you'll like them.
4. Use loom (either German style or Polyloom) to protect wiring. I recently bought a bunch of sizes of German style smooth loom, it's hard to find and very expensive.
5. On a bus there will be a wire-to-wire splice near the starter where the 40a fuse feed connects to the dashboard power feed wire. This is covered by loom in all of my pictures.
6. You'll need a 5/16" (8mm) 8 ga eyelet to solder 2-10ga wires into on the starter.
I've been doing these for over 10 years on VW's now and have yet to have a problem or blow any of the fuses.
Good Luck!
_________________
'66 Deluxe Bus
'65 Standard Bus
Build threads:
'66- http://www.leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2888&sid=54d8dedfb3822f99c7f2ea430cb4e856
'65- http://leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4263 |
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Thompson2
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Joined: June 06, 2018
Posts: 659
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| Bruce Amacker wrote: |
OK, you asked for it. I take a zillion pictures when I'm working to document stuff. (I'm an instructor and sometimes use these in class) When you do work for people they appreciate seeing documentation of nice quality work, more than "well, it works now". When I had the truck shop we did a LOT of wiring to keep old junk on the road so I've had 40+ years experience doing this.
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Love it! Answered most of my questions... mostly I was wondering about mounting the fuse and how to get the new wires through the firewall. I don't have a step bit yet, but I do have a Greenlee punch set. Step bit will likely be much easier in most cases.
[quote="Bruce Amacker"]
OK, you asked for it. I take a zillion pictures when I'm working to document stuff. (I'm an instructor and sometimes use these in class) When you do work for people they appreciate seeing documentation of nice quality work, more than "well, it works now". When I had the truck shop we did a LOT of wiring to keep old junk on the road so I've had 40+ years experience doing this.
I've use both expensive and cheap fuseholders, the cheap ones seem to work just as well. This one is $3.
| Quote: |
[quote="Bruce Amacker"]
...the fuseholder and cover are about $30 for this style from Terminal Supply!
| Quote: |
I'll likely go with the more expensive versions just so I have mounting provisions. If I do this, I want it to look very tidy... I'm weird like that, even if it cost me more...
[quote="Bruce Amacker"]
You'll probably need some of these:
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I have a crap ton of those on hand already. I'm going with the uninsulated versions so they look more factory. So far, there's plenty of clearance around them so I'm not overly concerned. The 16 and 25A fuses in my fuse block are way scarier... lol
[quote="Bruce Amacker"]
Another upgrade I commonly do is in the dash, the factory uses jumpers for everything, I eliminate those and feed power directly to the IG, HLS, and FB.
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I like it! Looks pretty easy to do as well. Don't think I'll tackle that yet, but if I have problems after cleaning everything up to get 60 years of junk and oxidation off, I'll know who to ask if I have questions. 
| Bruce Amacker wrote: |
1. Forget crimp terminals, solder everything. |
Terminations at factory components will be crimp-on for now, but good crimps... no plier crimps in my bus. I have multiple good crimpers to match wire size. Fuse block components, internals for dash switches, and all splices get soldered.
| Bruce Amacker wrote: |
2. Use shrink tube on all splices, and on spades to protect them from inadvertent shorting. The good shrink tube is labeled as "Marine" as it has glue/sealer inside of it and the tubing is thicker. Available everywhere, even HF has it. |
Yup. I also wrap splices with a layer of friction tape under the shrink tube so stray wires or whatever won't puncture the shrink tubing. I'll have to look for the marine shrink tube. Sounds like a good idea.
| Bruce Amacker wrote: |
3. Replace any OEG grommets as they will be dry rotted. Buying larger grommets can prove to be a big problem as Napa and many parts stores don't go above 1/2" or 5/8". You will probably need to drill an extra hole to run wires through. If you can't find grommets locally buy a few sizes on Ebay ahead of time. Forget assortments as they won't go larger enough. Fry's might have them if you have one nearby. Step-drills work great for drilling big holes in sheetmetal, if you don't have one you'll like them.! |
Yeah, pretty much every seal, gasket, grommet will end up being replaced. The cracking / breaking away is pretty much an epidemic on her. I've used a step bit before, it's just not in my tool box yet.
| Bruce Amacker wrote: |
4. Use loom (either German style or Polyloom) to protect wiring. I recently bought a bunch of sizes of German style smooth loom, it's hard to find and very expensive. |
I have access to a huge roll of split loom that I can use. Not a huge fan of it (it's a pain to deal with on most days), but I see the value in it. I also have access to nylon braid sleeving. Also a bit of a pain to use, but more durable and, to me, more tidy looking.
| Bruce Amacker wrote: |
5. On a bus there will be a wire-to-wire splice near the starter where the 40a fuse feed connects to the dashboard power feed wire. This is covered by loom in all of my pictures. |
I think I can get away from that with one of the more expensive wire holders, depending upon whether the power lead (on my bus) that goes from the starter to the fuse box is long enough to mount the fuse where I want. Not likely, but possible.
| Bruce Amacker wrote: |
6. You'll need a 5/16" (8mm) 8 ga eyelet to solder 2-10ga wires into on the starter. |
Good to know in advance, That's not one that I think I have on hand.
| Bruce Amacker wrote: |
I've been doing these for over 10 years on VW's now and have yet to have a problem or blow any of the fuses.
Good Luck! |
Excellent! And I don't need luck... I have excellent resources like you to lean on. 
One question on the Maxi fuse though. Why 40A? To hit that, you'd have to have all 8 5A fuses maxed out at the exact same time. Seems like a 30 would offer even better protection and still be completely functional.
Thanks a zilliion!
Michael |
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Bruce Amacker
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Joined: December 26, 2007
Posts: 1786
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Thompson2 wrote: |
Love it! Answered most of my questions... mostly I was wondering about mounting the fuse and how to get the new wires through the firewall. I don't have a step bit yet, but I do have a Greenlee punch set. Step bit will likely be much easier in most cases.
Warm up grommets with a heat gun before installing, they're much more pliable. You'll probably have a hard time getting the right one(s) for the area near the VR, a too-large one works if you warm it up.
I'm going with the uninsulated versions so they look more factory.
I commonly take the insulation off them.
Yup. I also wrap splices with a layer of friction tape under the shrink tube so stray wires or whatever won't puncture the shrink tubing.
I use a small die grinder and flap disc to buff the sharp strays before heat shrinking them. Usually not a problem with 16-18 ga solder joints, but a big problem with 8-10ga solder joints.
I have access to a huge roll of split loom that I can use.
You'll need at least 3 sizes, I stock about 6-7 sizes of both split poly and smooth German.
One question on the Maxi fuse though. Why 40A? To hit that, you'd have to have all 8 5A fuses maxed out at the exact same time. Seems like a 30 would offer even better protection and still be completely functional.
8 5a fuses? You mean 5 8a fuses?
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You really want to know? I used an amp clamp connected to a PicoScope to measure max draw through the feed wire during cranking (which is when it's loaded the most) and got a 28 amp spike for a few milliseconds. At this level you don't use a 30 amp fuse, you'd use a 40. My rule is a fuse should never carry more than 3/4 its rated load.
PS your 8a fuses don't carry 8a.
_________________
'66 Deluxe Bus
'65 Standard Bus
Build threads:
'66- http://www.leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2888&sid=54d8dedfb3822f99c7f2ea430cb4e856
'65- http://leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4263 |
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Thompson2
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Joined: June 06, 2018
Posts: 659
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce Amacker wrote: |
Warm up grommets with a heat gun before installing, they're much more pliable. You'll probably have a hard time getting the right one(s) for the area near the VR, a too-large one works if you warm it up.
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Cool. Hot water has worked for me in the past as well.
| Bruce Amacker wrote: |
I use a small die grinder and flap disc to buff the sharp strays before heat shrinking them. Usually not a problem with 16-18 ga solder joints, but a big problem with 8-10ga solder joints.
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That's an excellent idea... I like it!
| Bruce Amacker wrote: |
One question on the Maxi fuse though. Why 40A? To hit that, you'd have to have all 8 5A fuses maxed out at the exact same time. Seems like a 30 would offer even better protection and still be completely functional.
8 5a fuses? You mean 5 8a fuses?
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Nope - I meant 8 x 5A, but I'm a moron... 8 x 8A is what I actually should have. Not sure where I got 5A... 40A main makes more sense now...
| Bruce Amacker wrote: |
You really want to know? I used an amp clamp connected to a PicoScope to measure max draw through the feed wire during cranking (which is when it's loaded the most) and got a 28 amp spike for a few milliseconds. At this level you don't use a 30 amp fuse, you'd use a 40. My rule is a fuse should never carry more than 3/4 its rated load.
PS your 8a fuses don't carry 8a. |
Nice! Actual measurements used to make an informed choice... crazy talk!
Oh - and if the mountable fuse holders were say $8-$10 instead of $30, would you favor those? |
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