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cmonSTART
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Joined: July 15, 2014
Posts: 1915
Location: NH
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 Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Very interesting post. At some point I really should do like SGKent says and split the difference from both sides of TDC and see if my scale is off.
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'78 Bus 2.0FI
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51150
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Tcash wrote: |
| aeromech wrote: |
| I wish I could just bend the scale to be closer to accurate but it's so far off I don't think that's even possible. |
A little filing and a little bending should get you there.
Tcash |
Sad that lately almost every new part lately needs a little of that to fit and work correctly 
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airschooled
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Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12727
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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A bus I worked on that made its way across the country last year had an OG scale that cracked when the engine sucked a rag. We replaced it with one of these and also found that it was 4* too advanced. I think he ended up filing all the numbers off, marking 28* with a paint dot, and a few smaller paint dots for initial static setting and fully retarded idle ballpark.
Such a disgrace to these cars………
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| cmonSTART wrote: |
| Very interesting post. At some point I really should do like SGKent says and split the difference from both sides of TDC and see if my scale is off. |
There is an easy way to do this if you have the tin off the engine. Just run the #1 piston up as close as you can to TDC compression and then pour motor oil into the spark plug hole until the compression area is almost full but not the spark plug hole itself, now jockey the crank around to get the piston even closer to TDC by watching the oil level in the spark plug hole. Once you have it as close as you can then fill the spark plug hole almost to the brim with oil. Now move the crank back and forth the tiniest amount while watching the oil level. Right where the oil level is the highest will be TDC. You can easily get within 0.5*+/- of TDC this way. |
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| cmonSTART wrote: |
| Very interesting post. At some point I really should do like SGKent says and split the difference from both sides of TDC and see if my scale is off. |
There is an easy way to do this if you have the tin off the engine. Just run the #1 piston up as close as you can to TDC compression and then pour motor oil into the spark plug hole until the compression area is almost full but not the spark plug hole itself, now jockey the crank around to get the piston even closer to TDC by watching the oil level in the spark plug hole. Once you have it as close as you can then fill the spark plug hole almost to the brim with oil. Now move the crank back and forth the tiniest amount while watching the oil level. Right where the oil level is the highest will be TDC. You can easily get within 0.5*+/- of TDC this way. |
you might get away with that where you live but Gary would have News 7 with a Helicopter over his house as the police arrested him for being a public nuisance in an upscale area of San Diego. SoCoast Air Quality Board representatives would hand him a fine the value of his house for starting that engine the first time after doing that. The cloud of smoke would cover 1/3 a square mile. We can't get away with that kind of thing here in dry summer weather. Maybe in the middle of a winter storm with heavy rain and 40 mph wind to blow it away yes but not this time of the year. 300 Chicken Littlles would call SDFD.
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12727
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| cmonSTART wrote: |
| Very interesting post. At some point I really should do like SGKent says and split the difference from both sides of TDC and see if my scale is off. |
There is an easy way to do this if you have the tin off the engine. Just run the #1 piston up as close as you can to TDC compression and then pour motor oil into the spark plug hole until the compression area is almost full but not the spark plug hole itself, now jockey the crank around to get the piston even closer to TDC by watching the oil level in the spark plug hole. Once you have it as close as you can then fill the spark plug hole almost to the brim with oil. Now move the crank back and forth the tiniest amount while watching the oil level. Right where the oil level is the highest will be TDC. You can easily get within 0.5*+/- of TDC this way. |
you might get away with that where you live but Gary would have News 7 with a Helicopter over his house as the police arrested him for being a public nuisance in an upscale area of San Diego. SoCoast Air Quality Board representatives would hand him a fine the value of his house for starting that engine the first time after doing that. The cloud of smoke would cover 1/3 a square mile. We can't get away with that kind of thing here in dry summer weather. Maybe in the middle of a winter storm with heavy rain and 40 mph wind to blow it away yes but not this time of the year. 300 Chicken Littlles would call SDFD. |
The HOA police showed up 25 minutes after I started my cam break in this year…… Joke's on them since the they were 5 minutes late and couldn't tell where the smoke came from!
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| cmonSTART wrote: |
| Very interesting post. At some point I really should do like SGKent says and split the difference from both sides of TDC and see if my scale is off. |
There is an easy way to do this if you have the tin off the engine. Just run the #1 piston up as close as you can to TDC compression and then pour motor oil into the spark plug hole until the compression area is almost full but not the spark plug hole itself, now jockey the crank around to get the piston even closer to TDC by watching the oil level in the spark plug hole. Once you have it as close as you can then fill the spark plug hole almost to the brim with oil. Now move the crank back and forth the tiniest amount while watching the oil level. Right where the oil level is the highest will be TDC. You can easily get within 0.5*+/- of TDC this way. |
you might get away with that where you live but Gary would have News 7 with a Helicopter over his house as the police arrested him for being a public nuisance in an upscale area of San Diego. SoCoast Air Quality Board representatives would hand him a fine the value of his house for starting that engine the first time after doing that. The cloud of smoke would cover 1/3 a square mile. We can't get away with that kind of thing here in dry summer weather. Maybe in the middle of a winter storm with heavy rain and 40 mph wind to blow it away yes but not this time of the year. 300 Chicken Littlles would call SDFD. |
Easy enough to suck the vast majority of the oil back out of the cylinder is smoke is a concern. |
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
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Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Doing that to find TDC might be a solution for most situations but this time I happen to have the fan case with the 12 O'clock window and a fan with both the mark for that window and the notch on the pulley so I need not go to those extremes. Too bad I don't have a variety of scales to mount and check the accuracy of. Just be aware of this guys.
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the_benjamin_effect
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Joined: May 31, 2010
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Location: Gateway to the North Cascades, Washington State
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:03 am Post subject: |
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Aeromech,
For what it is worth... I have what looks like the same aluminium timing scale on my bus that I ordered several years ago from The Bus Depot. I had the engine rebuilt several years prior to installing this scale and the engine builder (you can see who in my signature line) marked the fan housing with 0* and 32*. My aluminium scale matches up perfectly with these hand written numbers (how accurate those numbers are, I don't know, but the two to me validate each other). I hope this helps any, and I am curious what you figure out with the scale being correct or inaccurate.
Cheers!
Ben
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| aeromech wrote: |
| .... Just be aware of this guys. |
now you know why I do this on each engine I build although some here gave me crap for it as unecessary
Topic on setting TDC: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=409853&highlight=tdc
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Tcash
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Cool, their drawing even has the appearance of being a Type 1 VW generator pulley. |
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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I would never give you crap for that. I do the same thing. Every crank, case, rod set and piston set if slightly different.
I verify with a depth mic that actual TDC matches TDC marks.
I also make all my fans have a mark at 180* to assist in setting valves. Ray |
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Clatter
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Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Not to be Naggy Nellie, but checking the accuracy of your TDC mark is SOP when building any motor.
Those 40-year-old floppy, half melted, mangled OG plastic timing scales ain't exactly spacecraft-grade, either. 
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
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Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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that is a good idea but I am seeing it only for sale overseas. There is an easy way to do this on an assembled engine. Get a bolt to make a barb, or a barb that fits the plug hole. Put the engine where you think TDC is. Put a clear 1/8" to 1/4" hose on the barb and immerse the end in some ATF. Turn the pulley and see if the hose pushes air out or pulls fluid in. If it pulls in turn the pulley the other way until it pulls fluid in no matter which way you go. Turn it a couple degrees, make a pencil mark on the pulley at a set spot and on the hose where the fluid is. Turn the pulley the other way until the hose mark is the same. Make a second mark on the pulley (use a pencil etc.) Measure between the two pulley marks and put a line 1/2 way. Double check but that should be very close to TDC. Remove hose, barb and you are done.
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jtauxe
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Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| aeromech wrote: |
| jtauxe wrote: |
| Just curious, is that engine for a 411? |
No, 1974 bus |
Do all '74 engines have the observation port on the top of the shroud?
I'm curious, because a wrecked '74 I picked up has that same port, and when Colin saw it he posited that it was an engine from a 411. Now I wonder if it could be the original engine (or at least shroud)...
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aeromech
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Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| jtauxe wrote: |
| aeromech wrote: |
| jtauxe wrote: |
| Just curious, is that engine for a 411? |
No, 1974 bus |
Do all '74 engines have the observation port on the top of the shroud?
I'm curious, because a wrecked '74 I picked up has that same port, and when Colin saw it he posited that it was an engine from a 411. Now I wonder if it could be the original engine (or at least shroud)... |
I'd have to guess that the shroud with the window would have come from a car like a 411. They need a window because there is no way to see the fan pulley from straight on like you can in a bus.
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Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| jtauxe wrote: |
| aeromech wrote: |
| jtauxe wrote: |
| Just curious, is that engine for a 411? |
No, 1974 bus |
Do all '74 engines have the observation port on the top of the shroud?
I'm curious, because a wrecked '74 I picked up has that same port, and when Colin saw it he posited that it was an engine from a 411. Now I wonder if it could be the original engine (or at least shroud)... |
A '74 bus shroud will have the mounts for the air pump on top but not have a timing hole. The 411/412 shrouds and the '72 bus shrouds will have the timing hole if I am not mistaken. |
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Vanapplebomb
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| Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: T4 Timing scale verification using 12 O'Clock window |
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Things can be a little tricky with timing marks on T4 fans if you are not 100% sure what the fan came off of. There were many different combinations of timing marks around the perimeter of the fans. I have three different ones myself, and I know of at least two more that are also different...so it could easy be that mark is not actually top dead center, but close. The timing scale may be more accurate than you think, and those apparent few degrees difference could be due to the fact that it may be a 5deg mark for static timing or something like that. It is tricky to know exactly what you got unless your an original owner and know your engine has never had a fan removed/replaced, engine work, etc.
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