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Performance of low VOC vs. "normal" paint
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VW_Buggsy
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:31 am    Post subject: Performance of low VOC vs. "normal" paint Reply with quote

I have to assume there is a reason we used those VOC's in paint though and that removing them or replacing them with lower VOC components represents some compromise. Usually we seem to compromise overall performance or ease of use when we make things safer and healthier.

Do lower VOC paints perform less well than traditional formulations? What, if any, special considerations go along with using a low VOC paint vs. a traditional formula?

I'm not really a painter I've just noticed that Rustoleum has been changing formulations to reduce VOC in their rattle cans and buckets. Some product numbers/formulations are only available in certain states depending on VOC restrictions. For example here in MD we get the low VOC version/formulation, but where my folks live in KY they still have the traditional formulas. If there is a significant performance advantage I could always stock up on a case of the regular VOC gloss black on my next visit to my parents Very Happy

There is also a slight cost difference where the same paint in the low VOC version costs slightly more, but not really to the point where that's really a concern for me.

Thoughts?
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record.....VOCs are solvents of virtually any type.....with a flash point below about 165F.
Other items that are not solvent based but can be considered VOCs....are ammonia because of its ability to recombinate as an air pollutant and its low vapor pressure.

In general.....unless they are of sophisticated chemistry design. ...most low VOC "versions" of normally high VOC products....perform at best....very differently and at worst....poorly.

Most low VOC paints, inks and coatings......are not "no VOC". They are fully solvent based....but just using solvents with a high flash point.

The problems/challanges this may cause is slower or faster flow out on the surface ( and again....if the formulation is sophisticated. ....flow agents can work around this).....slower drying....making it more susceptible to runs/drips or orange peel. ....and changes to gloss....which could be improved or degraded.

It will perform differently. It will require different gun settings. If you get used to what its requirements are....which may even be different humidity and operating temp requirements. ...if its well formulated there is no reason not to use it. Ray
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My friend (whom has been painting for many years) is having trouble adapting to the newer paints. Not sure about their long-term durability.
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VW_Buggsy
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Ray, so basically they are still the same paint they just change (reduce?) the paint solvents. What you're left with is what... less volitile fillers or solvents of some kind?

I guess it depends, they might reduce some solvents or change one to another entirely until they get at the VOC rating (and one hopes) the usability characteristics the want.

Lots of solvents and mixers are available separately from paint. If I continue my Rustoleum example (barring rattle cans) you could simply add all sorts of things to change the way it behaves (to a degree), acetone, mineral spirits, naptha, xylene, japan dryer, etc. and fiddle around until you had something you wanted to work with, right?

Sounds like the low VOC product is exactly that, a completely different product formulation and needs to be treated and evaluated as that, a completely separate animal from the regular one. Could be bad, could be good, could behave functionally about the same but remains to be seen until you try it.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VW_Buggsy wrote:
Thanks Ray, so basically they are still the same paint they just change (reduce?) the paint solvents. What you're left with is what... less volitile fillers or solvents of some kind?

I guess it depends, they might reduce some solvents or change one to another entirely until they get at the VOC rating (and one hopes) the usability characteristics the want.

Lots of solvents and mixers are available separately from paint. If I continue my Rustoleum example (barring rattle cans) you could simply add all sorts of things to change the way it behaves (to a degree), acetone, mineral spirits, naptha, xylene, japan dryer, etc. and fiddle around until you had something you wanted to work with, right?

Sounds like the low VOC product is exactly that, a completely different product formulation and needs to be treated and evaluated as that, a completely separate animal from the regular one. Could be bad, could be good, could behave functionally about the same but remains to be seen until you try it.



Please be VERY careful when mixing paint...and using ANY thinner or solvent or flow agent or modifier that is NOT listed within the paint system you are using. Even if speaking to yhe rep....he tells you you "can" use such and such "type" or thinner....pin them down to a BRAND.

For instance....a laquer thinner is a generic term. There are riughly four basic solvents in any laquer thinner....and hundreds of different blends for every brand.

Many paint, ink and coating system thinners and solvents...are either specific strength or blends....or are what are called "tech -spec"....meaning they are very pure and an exact density or specific gravity.

Why is this important? Some solvents are polar and some are non-polar....some are water miscable...some are not. Many common...adverized by name a singular solvents are actually combinations of one solvent literally dissolved into another under heat, pressure or other activities.

What this means is that similar looking, smelling and acting solvents can have very adverse reactions when they react with polymers used as pigments....and what many people term as "fillers"...which are actually some of the most important part of any paint or coating. These are ingredients like talc (over 125 kinds i have seen).....each type of which can do womething radically different....thicken.....thin.....create flow...arrest flow....alow drying. ..speed drying....make more cohesion or adhesion. ...stabilize color.....the list is endless. Its a crazy science.

Adding a solvent of the wrong strength, chemistry, purity, polarity etc.....i have seen make skme paints turn to cottage cheese in seconds and harden in an hour....some paints it has caused to never dry.....still others...totally change the color or kill adhesion.

Just be carful....especially with low VOC paints and coatings. They are already difficult formulations to make acceptable.

Also as a note......the 165°F dlash point to be called a VOC....is really a fire code and EPA air quality guidline and a bit of a loophole. In reality....there are VOCs that have very high flash points......they are just not regulated by the EPA as air wuality contaminants that have to be regulated to under 750 mg per liter.

A horrible example.....is that acetone is federally exempt from EPA regulation as a VOC/pollutant.......as a hat tip to the semiconductor industry. Grandfathered in. Ray
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VW_Buggsy
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uggggh! Thanks again Ray. This is why guys who aren't painters are so hesitant to invest in a gun and materials and such and give it a go. With all the different solvents and components and tricks and rules people advise, it starts to look pretty daunting.

Luckily I have a car that looks so bad, I'd be hard pressed to make it look any worse. I plan to just do test painting on cardboard first, then a test sheet of primed steel, then my deck-lid, slowly working up to starting on the car itself. That way my hope is that by then I'll have the whole process for getting decent results worked out and simply stick to what I know has been working including exact brands and product numbers if not the same cans of product.

Thanks for all the information and education.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VW_Buggsy wrote:
Uggggh! Thanks again Ray. This is why guys who aren't painters are so hesitant to invest in a gun and materials and such and give it a go. With all the different solvents and components and tricks and rules people advise, it starts to look pretty daunting.

Luckily I have a car that looks so bad, I'd be hard pressed to make it look any worse. I plan to just do test painting on cardboard first, then a test sheet of primed steel, then my deck-lid, slowly working up to starting on the car itself. That way my hope is that by then I'll have the whole process for getting decent results worked out and simply stick to what I know has been working including exact brands and product numbers if not the same cans of product.

Thanks for all the information and education.


Laughing i am not a painter either....i just work with a lot of industrial paints, inks and coatings for plastics and metals.

I have seen these issues with car paint, industrial outdoor paints and all kinds of coatings.

I work in industrial, medical and electronics printing industry. When the low VOC ink and coating requirements started up in the late 90s.....it radically changed processeses and results everywhere.
You have to be careful mixing any paint.....and even more so with low VOC mixtures. Ray
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VW_Buggsy wrote:
Uggggh! Thanks again Ray. This is why guys who aren't painters are so hesitant to invest in a gun and materials and such and give it a go. With all the different solvents and components and tricks and rules people advise, it starts to look pretty daunting.

Luckily I have a car that looks so bad, I'd be hard pressed to make it look any worse. I plan to just do test painting on cardboard first, then a test sheet of primed steel, then my deck-lid, slowly working up to starting on the car itself. That way my hope is that by then I'll have the whole process for getting decent results worked out and simply stick to what I know has been working including exact brands and product numbers if not the same cans of product.

Thanks for all the information and education.


Ideally you want to pick a paint system, and stick with it. Get the material data sheets for all parts of the system, and then stay within the compatability list. The paint manufacturer has already done the hard work for you, so follow their recomendations and you should be fine. This has worked well for me for over 20 years now, and I'm more of a "part time" painter. If you have a good paint supplier, they can also offer help with your needs, so don't be afraid to ask questions, as they could save you some money or extra work.
Something to think about, is that stepping up a more expensive paint product, usually means it's easier to work with, and often gives better results. Wink YMMV
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